Talk:Social liberalism

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Contents 1 Que? 2 Merger? 2.1 I did the deed 3 ... 4 Huh? 5 This entire statement is serious POV 5.1 gun control 6 Fair trade 7 Rewrite 8 article screwiness 9 Social Libertarianism redirect 10 FDP 11 Civil liberties 12 The progressions of Social Liberalism in Europe 13 Comparing with other schools of thought (e.g. Classical Liberalism) 14 "liberal institutions"

[edit] Que?

whoever wrote this page does not even understand what neoliberal means. This article is a missmatch of garble. It makes no sense. Who wrote this? -Gibby

[edit] Merger?

It seems to me that this article is a redundant stub, and should be merged with "modern liberalism" (or whatever mod-liberalism itself needs to be merged with). I don't care what heading all this goes under, but it's excessive and confusing for three identical ideologies (American, modern, social) to have three different pages. -- Lucidish

Wikipedia is not an American encyclopedia. Modern liberalism has an American meaning, but most liberals around the world would consider their form of liberalism to be modern liberalism. As the article allreayd states, social liberalism has also a specific meaning for (European) progressive liberal parties. Their ideology is not identical with American liberalism, though there are similarities. Electionworld 21:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you are reading a different article, because this one doesn't mention American liberalism, European liberalism -- or, actually, much of anything at all. It is a stub.

Also, what you've said here is actually very close to what I mean. The only difference of opinion, it seems, is that you think that modern liberalism is too relative, and ought to be merged into social liberalism. Well, fine. I would be satisfied if at least one of the three bit the dust.

Your "America" comment is a non-sequitur, and I have no idea how to handle it. My comments and suggestions have been very conscious of international attitudes, and are perfectly consistent with them, so far as I can tell. If there is any misunderstanding of the term "modern liberalism", it is not because it is Americacentric (the term "modern liberalism" has been used by The Economist, an English journal), but because it is simply not a very good or precise term. -- Lucidish

Sorry that I misunderstood, but in past editions of the article Liberalism, modern liberalism was used as a synomym of American liberalism. Personally I do not like the term Modern liberalism, since also free market liberals sometime use it to describe themselves. Electionworld 17:36, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

It's ok. True, it's not a very good term; neither are "neoliberalism", "neoconservatism", etc. Sadly, we don't really get to choose the conventions people adopt.

I've understood "modern liberalism" to be a synonym for "new liberalism" (another horrible term). If anything can settle this kind of taxonomy issue, it's an analysis of scholarly literature. We'll have to do that.

In any case, so long as "modern liberalism" is understood as a variant of "social liberalism", they ought to be merged. If not, the usefulness of "modern liberalism" seems to dwindle, and one might wonder why we need it as an article at all. And if, on the other hand, "modern liberalism" is taken to mean something widely different, then the mod-lib article as it is presently written needs an overhaul. Lucidish 23:21, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I did the deed

Please don't just revert. This merger was done for a reason. Lucidish 23:56, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ...

More than that -- this article seems to contain some very American references to the term "liberal"

The article states, for instance: "The ambiguous term neoliberalism has been used to describe the policies of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, since it advocates positions contrary to many of those taken by modern liberals."

This just plainly isn't true. It may be the case that SOCIAL Liberals might disagree with MARKET Liberals in some instances but surely the defining quality of A Liberal (in general) is to be socially AND economically liberal? See the British Liberal party (as opposed to the Liberal Democrats) for a plain example of this. Fornax 23:06, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean. There is a distinction between neoliberalism, market liberalism, and social liberalism. Neoliberalism is a pejorative used to slight corporate cronies who pretend to be market liberals; it is not market liberalism. Social liberalism and market liberalism both agree on the goals (increased liberty), but social liberalism accepts welfare and social programs while market liberals don't. They're mutually exclusive strains of the same ideology, not two different aspects of the ideology. Though it's easy to get confused because of the paucity of useful words we have available to make these distinctions. Lucidish 22:54, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Neoliberalism is not liberalism. I agree. But it goes to far to say that market liberalism and social liberalism are mutually exclusive. Most liberal parties adhere to a mixture. Electionworld 16:03, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Not in the way they're being formulated here. To be clear: social liberalism is modern liberalism, market liberalism is classical liberalism. That doesn't mean that social liberals hate the market or that market liberals don't fight for social justice. Lucidish 20:11, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with your last remark. At the same time that does not mean that they are mutually exclusive. Classical liberalism (laissez-faire) is not followed by many parties, but at the same time most liberal parties favour a free market with a social framework. The theoretical difference is bigger than the practical difference. Electionworld 21:43, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Whether or not there's a disagreement really just hinges on how the terms are being used. I mean to use them as they are on the present Liberalism page: as oppose strains of the same ideology. They can also be used as descriptions of issues that both ideologies try to grapple with in their own ways. Lucidish 22:05, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I've never before seen British conservative premier W.Churchill labelled as social liberal (=modern liberal). Could anyone explain it? Constanz 15:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

What is John Stuart Mill doing in modern lib section? He is very much a classical liberal - he created plural voting (which made others more eligible for voting than others. Totally classical liberal.) This page needs fixing!

Betty

Same goes for Tocqueville. He was against government welfare and similar policies, which the article suggests is one of the major differences between Social and Neoliberalism.

Ryan

I don't know who did the edits, but as per your requests I removed the disputed names (at least until the editor can justify them). Lucidish 22:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I added again John Stuart Mill, he may not be a full social liberal, but, he is considered by some to be the father of Social Liberalism/Modern Liberalism. Please check wikipedia:

"John Stuart Mill (United Kingdom, 1806-1873) is one of the first champions of modern "liberalism." As such, his work on political economy and logic helped lay the foundation for advancements in empirical science and public policy based on verifiable improvements. Strongly influenced by Bentham's utilitarianism, he disagrees with Kant's intuitive notion of right and formulates the "highest normative principle" of morals as: Actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness; wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness.

Some consider Mill as the founder of Social liberalism. Although Mill was mainly for laissez faire, he accepted interventions in the economy, such as a tax on alcohol, if there were sufficient utilitarian grounds. Mill was also a champion of women's rights."

mcduarte2000

Keynes should go out of this list, as he strongly argued that a hierarchy of markets exists, with financial markets taking the lead, he was in favour of countervailing individual capitalism by a strong state, including, if necessary, temporary capital controls and for him, redistribution and state activity was a way to promote growth and income, not just a redistributive issue "to help the poor". He was in favour of equal basic opportunities in real terms (as socialists are), not just equal formal chances (as liberals contend). Keynes has to be stated as Keynesian, nothing else.

(user: redwing)

Keynes wasn't a pure "social liberal", but is there such a thing as a pure thinker? He advocated free markets, with some state intervention, something that feets in social liberal thinking. Also, he is refered my some as a big influence on the social liberal ideas.

87.196.207.70 17:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Hans van Mierlo, founder of the Dutch social liberal party D66 was also heavily influenced by Mill's writings. Although this is just an empirical fact, it does seem to make the case that Mill's writings can be brought into agreement with social liberalism. Intangible 20:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This entire statement is serious POV

Like all liberals, social liberals believe in individual freedom as a central objective - but also believe that lack of economic opportunity, education, healthcare etc. can be just as damaging to liberty as can an oppressive state. As a result, social liberals are generally the most outspoken defenders of human rights and civil liberties, and combine this with support for a mixed economy, with an enabling state providing public services to ensure that people's social rights as well as their civil liberties are upheld.

If I don't get any response to this, I'm gonna contest it on the article page tonight. Thewolfstar 06:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It makes sense so long as an ideology is normative, and not descriptive. IE, this is normative, and is obviously true: "Social liberals believe in social liberalism; social liberalism entails belief in so-and-so; if x does not believe in so-and-so, then they are not a social liberal". This is descriptive, and may be false: "There is a set of people who call themselves 'social liberals'; and they tend to be outspoken persons on so-and-so". Lucidish 18:12, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I also don't see what's the problem with it. Please detail. Mcduarte2000 17:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The introduction contradicts itself. The following statement:

"Social liberalism is a political philosophy that emphasizes mutual collaboration through liberal institutions, rather than the threat and use of force, to solve political controversies."

Is inconsistent with:

"Social liberalism, as a branch of liberalism, contends that society must protect liberty and opportunity for all citizens, and advocates some restrictions on economic competition, such as anti-trust laws and price controls on wages ("minimum wage laws.") "

Since things like price controls depend on the threat of force.

The whole intro section is insideously POV, not just descriptive. Salvor Hardin 11:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

No, they're not contradictory, because in (1) the emphasis which social liberals (and all theorists, including advocates of most sorts of anarchism) place upon non-coercive solutions cannot possibly be universal in policy, whereas (2) uses the language of rights, which are supposed to be a universal policy. Lucidish 16:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

That's not at all obvious from reading it. It need to be reworded. Salvor Hardin 21:01, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

For me this is more than obvious. You my "emphasize mutual collaboration", this is your prefered method of action, but of course, sometimes your prefered way doesn't work. In no where is writen "social liberals always use mutual collaboration". Mcduarte2000 17:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

It says "mutual collaboration through liberal institutions, rather than the threat and use of force" and then goes on to describe the many ways that social liberals use force of threat of force to get what they want. There is not a single example of "mutual collaboration" given in the article. Either the article is seriously incomplete or the intro is seriously misrepresenting what the philosophy is about. Salvor Hardin 00:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. It should now be crystal clear. Removed the contradiction tag, which wasn't appropriate anyway.

I'm also removing the Original Research tag. If somebody puts it back up, it is up to them to point out what's original research, and also to point out what they think the appropriate standard is for verification of the content of an ideology. Lucidish 02:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

This statement is absurdly POV:

"social liberals are generally the most outspoken defenders of human rights and civil liberties,"

Salvor Hardin 03:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Fixed Lucidish 03:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

This statement is a bit problematic:

"Social liberalism is a political philosophy that prioritizes mutual collaboration where possible over the threat and use of force, while recommending the exercise of liberal democratic institutions in situations where they believe collaboration is impossible. "

Since "threat and use of force" means the same thing as "liberal democratic institutions", don't you think both instances ought to be changed to one or the other? Salvor Hardin 03:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

They're not identical. In order for your statement to be true, you would have to be implying that those states of affairs which do not include liberal democratic institutions are states of affairs which would not include threats of the use of force. And that's absurd. Nazi Germany, to name one. Civil war era America, to name another.

What you might have said is that all political institutions are based upon power. And, indeed, one of the forms of power is threat of the use of force; and, indeed, that's present in liberal democratic scenarios. But this is not unique to liberalism, or even to statehood. So I fail to see the problem. Lucidish 04:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Liberal democratic institutions are exactly the ones that prevent the use of force. You have separate powers, you have parliaments, you have a lot of different institutions that avoid war, revolutions or dictatorship. Also, at an international level, generally, social liberals prefer to use institutions like European Union and United Nations, to solve international disagreements, than simply go to war (this is one of the reasons why European liberals are the most federalist group on the European Parliament or were mostly against the war in Iraq) .

The opposite of this would be to impose a dictatorship, which would almost only allow others to solve their disagreements with it, by the use of force. Or at an international level to defend policies like attacking a country before being attacked. Probably you argue that liberal democratic institutions use the force to impose themselves, but this type of "use of force" is present in any other political system (even in an anarchy, where citizens would use also force to protect their interests). Mcduarte2000 11:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the distinguishing feature of social liberalism, as compared to other political philosophies, the presence of a welfare state? A welfare state entails the threat and use of force. Since social liberalism calls for a welfare state, it can hardly be said to "prioritize" mutual collaboration or "freedom". Salvor Hardin 16:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Your argument is invalid: the conclusion does not follow from the premises. Your first sentence is largely correct. The second sentence is trivially true. The third sentence is false.

The problem is that it ignores the social liberal argument, which has been provided for you in the wiki: that welfare actually increases the liberty of the least well-off through an increase of opportunities available to them. You may dispute the details of how to enact this, or even deny that this premise is true, but at least you should recognize and understand the argument. Lucidish 16:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The question of whether or not "welfare increases liberty" is irrelevant. Welfare itself requires the use of force and THAT is what social liberals advocate. Hence, social liberals are distinct from other political philosophies in that they advocate the use of force in order to create a welfare state. Salvor Hardin 18:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

They're not distinct in the use of threat of force, though, which is why your point is trivial. Moreover, "prioritizing" is not inconsistent with the use of force as, for instance, a last resort. Lucidish 19:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

There's also this: "and price controls on wages ("minimum wage laws"), intending to secure economic opportunities and thus extend liberties"

This is incoherent because minimum wage laws represent a reduction in economic opportunity and liberty. Salvor Hardin 18:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

See comments made previously. Again, it depends on the details of how it is enacted. Lucidish 19:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I made changes to the text that I hope will solve your doubts. Even, because, at least in Europe I don't think social liberal parties put a big emphasis on "minimum wage laws", so, probably, that example should even be taken out of there. Mcduarte2000 18:42, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Now it's starting to shape up. However, I feel it still misrepresents the philosophy. Wouldnt it be much more accurate to say something like "social liberals advocate restricting economic freedom in order to achieve their ideal of material equality"?

Salvor Hardin 18:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

No, the present formulation is the most appropriate formulation, given the robust sense of liberty which social liberals have. Rather, the use of the notion of liberty in the threadbare sense that you seem to presume that would be the "misrepresentation" of the social liberal philosophy. Lucidish 19:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I just read the section on Social liberals vs social democrats, and now I see what you mean. The social liberal concept is one I've never come across before, I assumed it just meant "liberal" in the American sense of the term. Social liberals must be a dying breed, or must never have been very prevalent in the first place. All you hear about these days are the social democrats. Salvor Hardin 19:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Social Liberals (in European sense) are very different from the American version. In Europe there are many social liberal parties, generally not very big, but they still play an important role in some governments. In England, Lib Dems is the 3rd biggest party, for example. On the European parlment, for example, the liberal group, which includes social liberals and liberal conservatives is the 3rd biggest group. Mcduarte2000 19:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the title of "social liberal" is consistent with post-war welfare liberalism in America, so I don't really know what either of you mean. The social liberal position was, and still is, very popular as a centrist position; people just find the semantics confusing. In the same way, "classical liberalism" is often said to be a "dying breed", yet they're simply libertarians with a few modifications (abandonment of gold standard, for instance); and though libertarianism is a minority position, it is not a marginal one. Lucidish 21:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

What I mean is that "social liberalism" in Europe is very different from "social liberalism" in USA. At least it shouldn't be mixed up (and this is why this is a separate article from the american social liberalism). I would say european social liberalism, would fit on the right wing of the democratic party in USA (the exception would be the Lib Dems in UK, which because of being mixed up in the past with social democrats are a bit leftist). I've talked with many american "Democrats" living in Europe and most of them consider european social liberals to be extreme capitalists. European social liberals defend some welfare state, but a minimal one (much less than the current one that exists on most european states). Also you should note, that European social liberal parties belong mostly to the International Liberal, but Democrats in USA don't. Mcduarte2000 21:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

We can't talk about these things on the basis of anecdote. At any rate the 'right-wing of the Democratic party' characterization may be apt for the term 'social liberal', depending on what exactly you mean by the 'right wing'. Lucidish 22:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

What I mean is European "social liberals", are much more market oriented than a lot of the american democrats. This actually is not only an anecdote, but is present on some serious political tests on the internet, for example, as well as can observed in a book I could recomend "Liberal parties in Western Europe". Mcduarte2000 07:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

"Post-war welfare liberalism in america" is covered under the article "american liberalism". I've never heard anyone in the USA call themselves a "social liberal". The lefties here call themselves "social democrats" or "liberal democrats", and they fit the description that this article gives for "social democrats". It would be extremely inaccurate IMO to say that american liberals "place an emphasis on individual freedom" or something like that. It maybe very well be the case, though, that european social liberals do. Salvor Hardin 23:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

You haven't heard people say it in America because they generally don't need to. The term "liberal" in America was idiomatically annexed by the post-war liberals. The term "social liberal" is used here in order to situate it in the worldwide context, both as a means of contrasting to other forms, and as a means of moving away from Americocentrism (social liberalism, as has been noted, has some strength in the UK).

You're welcome to your opinion. I don't share it, and am fairly certain that you would be misrepresenting social liberals by editing away their main argument and source of justification. Lucidish 00:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

This I believe we already all agreed. The main source of justification of "social liberal ideology" is freedom, not equality. Social liberals see equality in a different way of classic liberals because they also consider positive freedoms to be important, but that's it. Mcduarte2000 07:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

As long as we agree that "social liberalism" is distinct from modern, mainstream american "liberalism". Salvor Hardin 08:11, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

That’s why there are two articles different about it. Actually, you need only to read the first paragraph to see wide differences. Social liberalism would never apply the "New Deal" measures, most social liberal parties in Europe doesn't agree with progressive taxation, minimum wage laws aren't exactly also the rule, don't accept quotas or positive discrimination to stop discrimination and don't also like to solve problems using "social programs".

Also, if you read a bit more the “American liberalism article”, Keynes can be referred as someone that inspired social liberals, but, at least on the present century, is not exactly someone that most social liberal parties would agree with.

From my European point of view, American Liberals, the way they are described, look a lot like socialists and social-democrats. Mcduarte2000 09:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

We are most certainly NOT agreed about any of the above characterizations. Even Adam Smith was arguably in favor of progressive taxation.

The idea that social liberalism does not apply to "new deal" measures is completely wrong. My comments having to do with postwar liberalism in America and social liberalism have everything to do with exactly this. To the extent that European countries reject these policies, they are less socially liberal. Only the issue of affirmative action seems to be a real stickler in the mainstream. Lucidish 16:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone needs to present sources supporting the wild claim that american liberalism is in support of "individual liberty". Salvor Hardin 00:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The answers are too obvious to mention. You just need to examine the cases of GITMO, the ACLU, civil rights in the 60s, etc. to see the answer. The only case where I can think of American liberals being ideologically opposed to some individual right is with respect to some poorly crafted and generally shitty legislation which the Democrats tried to push during the Clinton years on gun control. There are other cases, i.e., having to do with marijuana, but my impression is of American liberal ambivalence, not hostility. In any case, the gun control exception may demand that the wiki's claim to be made less bold. Lucidish 03:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Why are we discussing this? Haven't we already arrived to the conclusion, "social liberalism" is not equal to "american liberalism"? There is even an article specific about american liberalism! Mcduarte2000 17:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "equal to". They're certainly not synonymous. However, American liberals are almost exclusively associated with social liberal ideas. Lucidish 22:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's try to organize ourselfs. Two questions:

You consider that there should exist one article "American Liberalism" and one article "Social Liberalism" or not?

You consider Democrat Party to be a Social Liberal party (if so, why aren't they members of International Liberal, but of something called Alliance of American and European Democrats)?

Mcduarte2000 08:03, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

L to McD: Yes, I do believe there should be two articles. The Democrat Party sometimes is, and sometimes is not, socially liberal. However, a) American liberalism is not necessarily equal to whatever the Democrats advocate; b) that which is called "liberal" in the US is by and large an exemplar of what it means to be socially liberal; c) this article is about an ideology, not membership in some international club. Lucidish 18:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, after rereading what you wrote "On many issues, mainstream American liberalism may be considered to be a sort of social liberalism", I don't see any problem with it. From my part this article is not POV, at least not on this phrase. Mcduarte2000 22:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Fine. I agree. But let me be absolutely and positively clear about what I am reacting to which you wrote: Social liberalism would never apply the "New Deal" measures, most social liberal parties in Europe doesn't agree with progressive taxation, minimum wage laws aren't exactly also the rule... and don't also like to solve problems using "social programs". This is false. To the extent that these measures are frowned upon, they repesent an ideology that is repellent to social liberalism. To be utterly clear: American liberalism during its heyday (1950-79) was a leading figure in social liberalism. Lucidish 23:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I believe, today social liberal parties would never do that, at least to such extension. I tell you this, based on my social liberal coleagues in Europe (I belong to a social-liberal organization). From my knowledge, if we look to the "New Deal" as a whole, it was a very statist program, I hardly can consider it liberal. Of course, as many other things in politics, some of it's measures would perfectly be aceptable under a liberal social program. Regarding the american liberalism 50's to 70's I must admit I don't know enough about it to discuss it.

Regarding "international clubs", they are important, because the club you belong (in terms of political ideas) tells a lot about with whom you identify more. Democrats and liberals can clearly work together (that is why in EU parliament they work under the same political group - ALDE), but, they don't share the same ideology, that's why the "Democrat" parties belong to a different European party and don't belong to "International Liberal". Even on the arguments used for creating the club and groups you can see how far or close the parties are. For example, the biggest argument for the creation of ALDE was to join under the same umbrella the federalist parties. Of course, even International Liberal has very different parties, some more conservative liberal, and some more social liberal. Some more to the left in economical terms, some more to the right. ;)

Mcduarte2000 17:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know who your colleagues are, but they do not sound like social liberals, in the sense that this article cares about. Lucidish 21:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

This European Democratic Party is not a party with its own ideology. It is a co-operation of christian-democrats and centrists who favour European integration and formed a united group in the EP with the ELDR (European liberal democrats). Electionworld = Wilfried (talk 19:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, if they have an ideology or not, I don't have any clue. But they have created a sort of "international" with the american democrats (Alliance of American and European Democrats). In Wikipedia you can read something like: "Its cofounder François Bayrou (UDF) described it as a party for people being neither conservative nor socialist, like the United States Democratic Party.", which actually doesn't tell a lot about them. Anyway, the only point I want to make is that hardly the American Democrat Party can be considered "liberal" in the international sense, and so, also, hardly can be a good example of "social liberalism". Mcduarte2000 23:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] gun control

Gun control fits into liberal ideas. Other people having guns is dangerous for my personal liberty. Electionworld = Wilfried (talk 16:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding gun control, as far as I know, it's a subject specific to certain countries, including USA and Brasil last year. In Europe I don't remember of hearing any discussion lately regarding this subject. I guess we live happilly with gun control. I've no idea what would be the position of a Social Liberal party regarding this specific subject. Mcduarte2000 17:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not aware of any social liberal party possing gun control. Electionworld = Wilfried (talk 21:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair trade

Fair trade is a term which is not in itself POV, because it has a more or less agreed meaning, having to do with approval of tariffs upon goods produced by exploitative industries. Lucidish 18:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone added it after I just wrote "free trade". I think the word could have many meanings, including the one you used, so it's better not use it. Mcduarte2000 20:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

This article needs a complete rewrite. Social liberalism is liberalism focusing more on the social, rather than economic aspects of politics. Mwhorn 05:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Not in the way the phrase is being used here. If you have a better suggestion for proper nomenclature, by all means provide it. Lucidish 16:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This article seems to be describing welfare or American Liberalism. By definition social liberalism and progressive liberalism should be the same thing, and should contrast dirctly with social conservatism. Mwhorn 22:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

American liberalism from the Progressive Era on pretty much equals social liberalism. Intangible 22:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, so what's the problem then? Lucidish 22:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This article seems to focus heavily on economic issues, and seems to describe current American Democrats/Liberals or "welfare liberals". From what I know, and by the general definition of each word I would equate the primary definition of social liberalism focusing more on things like

• Environmental protection laws (although not to the extent advocated by Greens).
• A secular and progressive social policy, including support for gay marriage, abortion, liberal drug policy, euthanasia and prostitution legalization.
• A foreign policy supporting the promotion of democracy, the protection of human rights and, where possible, effective multilateralism.

I would tone down the economic issues which this article seems to focus on more. I think the only things that should be included are:

• Regulatory bodies over private enterprise in the interests of consumers and fair competition.
• A Free market economy.

Because the rest may be disputed between many social liberal parties, while some may not even include economic issues in their stated agenda. Mwhorn 00:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Social policy views are also libertarian views, which perhaps explains why they haven't received sufficient treatment here. Still, you're right, they have a strong place. I'm not sure about the environmental protection one, but I think a strong case can be made for it.

Foreign policy however is the trickiest item you have there. Some liberals may advocate nationbuilding, others may be pacifists. While I would agree with the impression that liberals tend to support multilateralism, I would not be comfortable being too bold on that.

Anyway, I don't disagree. If you have the time to do a writeup, that would be great. Lucidish 02:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Please don't do write-ups. Just find (scholarly) sources that describe social / progressive / American (1900+) liberalism, and find a common ground in that. Intangible 02:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Um. Aside from the caveats I listed, the suggestions for additions provided by Mwhorn are unobjectionable. What exactly are you suggesting here? That we lift material from scholarly sources instead of writing ourselves? Lucidish 03:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I will try to find the time to research more about this topic and check my facts using scholarly sources from my local library and from social liberal parties. If anyone has any objections or suggestions, please let me know. Hopefully I can do a write-up and I will keep you posted! Thanks, Mwhorn 04:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Is there anyone still wanting to clean up more the article? The article has been tagged for clean up since June, and there were already a lot of changes. I believe things are quite good (but of course, can be always better). Shouldn't we return to normality and clean the cleanup tag? Mcduarte2000 09:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] article screwiness

This article has some of the worst article screweduppedness that I have seen anywhere. Even for the current Wikipedia articles, which are declining at a rapid clip, this is one of the worst. Many of the other articles that it points to, though are competition for wackiness. I started with the intention of editing this thing, but don't know quite where to start. It is that bad. Shannon 05:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Before you do anything relevant, could you please specify exactly what is the "screweduppedness" in the article? People have been discussing it for a long time, there seems not to exist any agreement. My view is that this article deals with non-american social liberalism, or to be more direct, it is basically related with social liberalism in Europe. Mcduarte2000 13:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Until Lang gets specific, it's not possible to take this criticism seriously. I am removing the tag in anticipation of actual points. Lucidish 02:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Social Libertarianism redirect

There is no reason why Social libertarianism should redirect here. They are two completely unrelated, if not opposing ideologies. —ExplorerCDT 03:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Shouldnt it be Libertarian socialism? Mcduarte2000 14:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• And that's to where I redirected it. —ExplorerCDT 15:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FDP

I'm in favor of taking the German FDP off the list again. Just take a look on their platform und their actual policies. This party doesn't even consider itself a social liberal party nor is it considered one by any other political party in Germany. Instead it is usually considered the most right-wing/conservative/"libertarian" party on economic issues. This means to the right of the CDU/CSU. Actually, it would make much more sense to include the German Green Party in this list (which I would oppose too, but it would make more sense than including the FDP)

In addition, I have often heard card-carrying members of the FDP speaking in disdain of social liberal parties such as the Liberal Democrats in the UK, since they don't consider them "real" liberals because of their supposed "leftist" policies. The overwhelming majority of political scientists also agree that the FDP is a classic liberal party. In short: If the FDP is really supposed to be a social liberal party than there aren't any classic liberal parties in the world and all liberal parties could be included in this list. ;-)

As I understand, the inclusion of the FDP is based on the ground this it is mentioned in two sources as a social liberal party. One of them is a an 18 years (!) old publication from the United Kingdom. I don't know how the FDP is described in this book, but don't you think that might be a bit outdated? The second one is an essay in which the FDP is not further mentioned in the text but appears in a chart, where it is grouped together with the Dutch D66 and the British Liberals in a category called "Political Liberal Parties" (note: not social liberal parties). In the text, where the FDP itself isn't mentioned, it is stated:

"Three variants can be distinguished in the liberal party family. The first—liberalradicalism— describes liberal parties that are left-of-centre on economic issues and support a broad interpretation of democratic rights. Liberal-radical parties, such as the Danish Radicale Venstre and the Dutch D66, favour substantial state intervention in the economy on the grounds that this is necessary to achieve social justice and protect individuals from the vagaries of the market. The second variant of liberalism, liberal-conservativism, emphasises economic freedom and tends to be right of centre. Liberal-conservative parties, such as the Dutch VVD and the Belgian liberal parties, adopt an economically conservative agenda, advocating a minimal role for the state in the economy."

I assume the FDP is now supposed to be a social liberal party, because it appears in a diagram together with D66, which is mentioned earlier in the text as a party, which is "left-of-centre on economic issues" and "favours substantial state intervention in the economy". Well, first that's a pretty thin argument for the FDP being a social liberal party anyway. Second, in the case of D66 this might be true, but if you look at the platform and the policies of the FDP it becomes clear that this isn't the case here. Ask any FDP member (or any German for that case). If the FDP is "left-of-centre" what is the CDU then? A socialist party? - Der_Hans

I agree with Der Hans that the FDP shouldn't be labelled as a social liberal party. The party was a social liberal party in the 70ties and the 80ties, but later on the economic liberal wing dominated the party. There are still social liberals in the party, but it is not the mainstream of the party. I don't agree that it is the most right wing party, since it has a clear liberal profile on rule of law etc. I wouldn't label them, the VVD and the Belgian parties as liberal-conservative parties, since they didn't adopt conservative norms and values (see Abortion and Gay marriage or in the Dutch/Belgian case Euthanasia), its economic policy is econimic liberal, not conservative. Electionworld Talk? 14:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Note: The "most right-wing party in Germany" comment was only referring to the FDP's stance on economic issues. Of, course it's a liberal party... just not a social liberal one. But thanks for the support. ;-) - Der_Hans

[edit] Civil liberties

The article stated that social liberals defend civil liberties, but this is not entirely true, (at least not in the US). Social liberals have classically called for gun control which is in conflict with the 2nd amendment in the Bill of Rights, which is what defines our civil liberties here in the US. So I qualified it accordingly. Doctors without suspenders 03:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

That might be your constitution, but no international bill of rights defines the right to be armed as a civil right. I think private people having guns violates my civil rights, my freedom and is a danger for society and its citizens. Electionworld Talk? 15:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is in my constitution and I don't know why I should be concerned by any international bill of rights. It's in my constitution for a reason and one of the most important reasons is for the self-defense of the people in the event of their government turning against them. Hitler and Stalin, incidentally, didn't believe in the people being armed, either. So I guess they would approve of the international bill of rights, but would not approve of the US bill of rights. I personally feel more threatened by state military and police than by any private citizen. Doctors without suspenders 18:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I put a pov tag on that section because it obviously a personal point of view whether citizens should be allowed to be armed and defend themselves or not. It is not a fact. Doctors without suspenders 18:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I know countries (ex: Brazil), where people which claim to be social liberal defend the right to be armed (to defend against crime). In Europe they are against this, but, well, I don't know about any party which would be in favour of bearing arms in Europe, except the extrem-right parties (generally those that inspire themselfs in Hitler and the likes). I don't consider "denying the right to bear arms" to be a defining caracteristic of social liberalism and this is not an american centeric article (some american members of the Democrat party are "social liberal", the Democract party is not a social liberal party, even if this is what it claims to be). So your argument for pov doesn't make sense regarding this specific topic Mcduarte2000 10:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You said this isn't an American centric article. Is it a European centric article? If it is then it should clearly state this. Also, I don't understand why "those that inspire themselfs in Hitler" would be in favor of an armed populace. Hitler was in favor of disarming the populace. (That's why he was able to kill so many.) Anyway there are 200,000,000 people who disagree with you about whether the right to bear arms is a civil liberty. So I guess it is relevant...Or is this is just about the European outlook then it should be stated in the article. Otherwise it is false and POV and social liberals do not defend all civil liberties Doctors without suspenders 18:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The edit I just made is a fact and unless you can prove otherwise you really need to leave it alone. If you change it with no good reason you are inserting pov and trying to keep fact out of this article. Doctors without suspenders 18:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The progressions of Social Liberalism in Europe

Any plans to include information on where now Social Liberalism is becoming more conservative? I live in Sweden, and among academic circuits this is something that is being increasingly discussed and brought up. This is evident in the rhetoric and campaign issues they selected in our latest election. It's now more about law and order than individual freedom and development. They also believe that instead of the government having a hands-off approach towards moral values - that the government SHOULD participate in telling the people to adhere to western values. The Swedish Folkpartiet wants to force immigrants to take a language test to become citizens and are very much against veiling (even for women who veil themselves voluntarily), the reasoning is that they don't think foreigners should come in to the country and turn back the clock of social progression that has been achieved. Anyways, all I'm doing here is bringing up one example and wouldn't mind seeing what others think of this. I however think that this should definitely be a topic that should be covered in one way or another. Mastgrr 21:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

A section "social liberalism and immigration" can always be added to the article, although I'm not sure this is discussed much on ideological terms. Intangible 01:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comparing with other schools of thought (e.g. Classical Liberalism)

Comparison with other schools of thought needs to be sourced. For example with this:

It [social liberalism] has been a label used by progressive liberal parties in order to differentiate themselves from classical liberal parties, especially when there are two or more liberal parties in a country. Unlike classical liberalism which embraces a strictly laissez-faire philosophy, social liberalism sees a role for the State in providing positive liberty for individuals.

This is a controversial claim--not all classical liberals advocated a completely free market, even Adam Smith made exceptions. See Block, Walter. fr: "Adam Smith and the Left." Jeet Heer. National Post (December 3, 2001), in which Block, a professor and advocate of libertarianism, states: "Adam Smith should be seen as a moderate free enterpriser who appreciated markets but made many, many exceptions. He allowed government all over the place."

I see either two options here--reference the claim and include the Block reference in opposition, or point to libertarianism rather than classical liberalism.Shawn Fitzgibbons 14:17, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Why do you keep pushing this misquoted quote. At the very best you are messing up Block's quote at the very worst, Block is pushing a very suspect version of anarcho capitalism by making a straw man out of Smith...which I don't think he's doing. Nevertheless, I suspect this quote is way out of context.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.15.112.129 (talk • contribs).

Your claim that the source is out of context is noted, however, you might want to provide some evidence other than your gut feeling or own biases.

Murray Rothbard and Alan Krueger have made similar claims. In any case, I would like to hear others' opinions of the reference to classical liberalism before editing the article to reference libertarianism.Shawn Fitzgibbons 13:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Every honest capitalist and economist of the free market knows Adam Smith's position, its not new. At one time leftists painted the laissez fare economy as an anarchic chaotic pipe dream. Now, apparently, they are attempting to wrangle Adam Smith and declare he's a left winger because he approved of government correction of market "failures" You are misquoting these people for this purpose. The authors you try to cite are attempting to demonstrate that Adam Smith was not a chaos capitalist as the straw man builds him to be. BTW, you are also entering your biases, except in this case, your bias is incorrect.

You keep making claims without evidence. I'll ignore them.Shawn Fitzgibbons 20:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "liberal institutions"

I find the following sentence somewhat confusing, since it comes across as a circular argument: "Social liberalism is a political philosophy that emphasizes mutual collaboration through liberal institutions." Could these institutions be defined by some other adjective or adjectival phrase than "liberal"? Haiduc 13:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)