Talk:Power pop

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Contents 1 Pete Townshend quote 2 List of songs/artists removed from article 3 This a good article, but 3.1 Jet 3.2 Edit 3.3 More bands 4 Instrumental Solos 5 Artists (ctd) 6 Subtractions from the song list 7 Power pop - pop or rock? 8 US Centered? 9 Power Pop 10 Starting list of songs 10.1 Removing songs?

[edit] Pete Townshend quote

The Pete Townshend quote can be found in Dave Marsh's biography of The Who, Before I Get Old. Townshend also described The Small Faces as power pop.

[edit] List of songs/artists removed from article

The following is a list I removed from the article. See below. Tuf-Kat

• No Matter What, by Badfinger (1970)
• Couldn't I Just Tell You, by Todd Rundgren (1971)
• Go All the Way, by The Raspberries (1972)
• Tonight, by The Raspberries (1973)
• September Gurls, by Big Star (1974)
• Shake Some Action, by The Flamin' Groovies (1976)
• Baby It's Cold Outside, by Pezband (1977)
• Stop! Wait a Minute, by Pezband (1978)
• I Wanna Be Sedated, by The Ramones (1978)
• Ever Fallen in Love with Someone, by Buzzcocks (1978)
• Surrender, by Cheap Trick (1978)
• Cruel to Be Kind, by Nick Lowe (1979)
• I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend, by The Rubinoos (1979)
• Good Girls Don't, by The Knack (1979)
• Teenage Kicks, by The Undertones (1979)
• What I Like About You, by The Romantics (1980)
• Yellow Pills, by 20/20 (1981)
• Someday, Someway, by Marshall Crenshaw (1982)
• A Million Miles Away, by The Plimsouls (1983)
• Love Is for Lovers, by The dB's (1984)
• Erica's Word, by Game Theory (1986)
• She's So Young, by The Pursuit of Happiness (1988)
• Golden Blunders, by The Posies (1990)
• There She Goes, by The Las (1990)
• Ghost at Number One, by Jellyfish (1993)
• Buddy Holly, by Weezer (1994)
• Goin' Through Your Purse, by Material Issue
• She Digs Her, by You Am I (1995)
• Someone Somewhere, by Wannadies (1996)
• Hurt Me, by The Odds (1996)
• Sucked Out, by Superdrag (1996)
• Buzzbomb, by The Vandalias (1998)
• Turn It Around, by Steve Ward (2000)
• I'm Shakin', by Rooney (2003)
• Stacy's Mom, by Fountains of Wayne (2003)
• Swing, Swing, by All-American Rejects (2003)
• We Used to be Friends, by The Dandy Warhols
• Just The Girl, by Click Five (2005)

[edit] This a good article, but

This a good article, but there are a lot of ambiguities and disagreements about exactly what "power pop" is among power pop fans and others not acknowledged here. Although most fans would agree that The Beatles are highly influential on power pop bands, they would not consider The Beatles themselves power pop. Mostly power pop devotees would think that something was changed about the Beatles Liverpudlian pop sound to make it "power" pop.

"Power" Pop - Cheap Trick is probably the band most cited as power pop, and they essentially are what Pete Townshend meant when he first coined the term "power pop" - power chords and a harder rock edge added to straight-ahead pop. Here, power pop is truly a melding of rock and pop. Other bands after Trick, like The Knack, Matthew Sweet, Material Issue, Sloan and Tsar would fall into this same category. Some power pop fans consider this the only true definition of power pop.

Over-the-Top Pop - The Raspberries were the first in a wave of over-the-top pop bands that took pop to the most dramatic extremes. Often these bands were lush, and often experimental with their pop. Electric Light Orchestra and Jellyfish would take what The Raspberries started even further.

Indie Pop - Big Star, who are almost always considered a power pop band, would meld The Beatles sound with the beginnings of what would become indie pop. The dB's, The Replacements and Teenage Fanclub would follow in this vein.

There is also the more traditional Beatlesque pop played by bands like Badfinger and New Wave power pop played by bands like The Romantics, The Shoes and 20/20.

These are just some very loose ideas, and I'm leaving out important artists here, like Todd Rundgren. I'd like to at some point rewrite the general power pop article, adding categories and different lines of thinking. This is just a start, and looking for feedback.

Sensorium

[edit] Jet

Contrary to Sensorium's comments, Jet certainly qualify as "power pop" due to their obvious debts to not only the Beatles, but also to Badfinger and the Raspberries. They qualify as much as Fountains of Wayne or Rooney. One could also make a good case for the Vines being power pop, although their obvious debt to Nirvana - who were influenced by power pop but usually are not considered such - may disqualify them.

[edit] Edit

1) a) Removed sentence about lyrics confined to romantic love, which is completely false. Take some of the most prominent bands, such as Big Star, Cheap Trick, or even the Knack, who rarely sing about "romantic love", and often times not even about sex. b) Removed Jet again. Sorry. I don't want to play this back and forth game, but the rest of the bands listed are truly power pop. I have a power pop collection of thousands of cd's and records, and have worked with many of the top bands and fans in the field. Fountains and Rooney are considered straight-ahead power pop. Jet is not. Jet may have some power pop elements, but they are steeped in an early Stones, garage rock sound, which is far different from the rest of these bands. There are many, many more power-pop like bands, popular and not, that should be listed here before Jet. There is a page of power pop bands -- list them there, if you must, althouth I don't really believe they should be there either. c) Removed the Cars paragraph. Please cite sources as to where they are influential, if this is the case. The Cars are an electronic-based new wave band, certainly influential, but as influential to Fountains of Wayne, Matthew Sweet, Tsar, etc as numerous other bands are? I disagree with this as well. If you want a band who is oddly influential to power pop bands, who isn't itself power pop, take Queen, whose influences on Jellyfish, Sugarbomb, The Blakes, etc, are extraordinary.

I don't mean any offense by any of this, and definitely don't want to get stuck in a changing-back-and-forth vibe on this page, so, if someone wants to continue an ongoing discussion here or by mail, I'm willing to do so. Why don't you guys who are working here sign up for an account, so we can discuss more easily?

I still think the opening paragraph is extremely flawed in its definition of power pop, but I haven't had time to rewrite it.

Sensorium

[edit] More bands

Okay - edit if you wish...but I've been hearing some Cars' influence - but it may be one of the influences...I've been hearing more Cars like synth lines on the most recent bands.

However i've added two more artists due to extensive research through websites... I was a power-pop aficionado...buying stuff like *The Shoes, 20/20, Paul Collins Beat, The Knack, The Plimsouls, The Romantics etc. from 1979-1983 and also listened to Dwight Twilley in my youth to the current day stuff.

Badfinger was great for all their turbulence... They had that one great tune that was not their hit, Nilsson's "Without You" in 1972.

I agree with Jet being excluded from the list - they are actually an Australian garage rock outfit.

However I consider the Buzzcocks and the Ramones to be punk than power-pop (I was in a punk band myself in 1977) - they have tendencies but they are not in anyway like any of the other bands you've listed. In fact I heard that Joey was bitter on his death bed - seeing that punk has finally made mainstream and his band never got their due when they first came out in 1976.

Regarding - The Beatles - i totally agree...it's usually the jangly-pop singles between 1965-1966 (the pre-Sgt. Pepper era) that includes "Ticket To Ride," "Day Tripper," "Help" and "Paperback Writer." However, some of those late 70's power pop bands such as The Knack and The Romantics used the 64 Merseybeat Beatles as nspiration... e.g. harmonica solos on "Good Girls Don't" and "What I like about you."

[edit] Instrumental Solos

In the introductory paragraph:

Musically the style is characterized by strong melodies...with instrumental solos kept to a minimum.... The Knack's "My Sharona" (1979) [is one] of the most commercially successful singles best representative of the power pop genre.

I'm sorry to inform you, but "My Sharona" has like a two minute guitar solo. Personally, I don't think that's kept to a minimum, except maybe compared to a jam band like The Allman Brothers Band or O.A.R. I think the distinction should be made there, instead of where it is right now. Akrabbim 04:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Artists (ctd)

I'm with you on all that stuff, rg. Ramones are definitely primarily punk and secondarily power pop. Buzzcocks, probably the same, though the gap is less wide.

I definitely think the Beatles are extremely influential on power pop, it's just difficult to call them that themselves, since most people believe it began with Raspberries, Big Star, Todd Rundgren, Badfinger, et al.

To me, the ultimate power pop band is Cheap Trick, along with, in many ways, the Knack -- those bands really ARE a blend of Beatlesque pop with harder music and power chords. Though, admittedly, some of this is a personal preference. There is a big gap between Cheap Trick and, say, Marshall Crenshaw (who I'd personally consider more twee pop) -- but both are undoubtedly considered power pop, and their music is extremely different -- this is exactly why it's so hard to have a page explaining what power pop is. A lot of bands in the power pop category have so little in common.

Sensorium

I know...today's power pop is different - so their point of reference is a little bit more modern since they are much younger - that's why I believe that they have a little more "Cars" influence than say bands in 1978-79, they may have been fans or acquired the influence second-hand probably from Weezer who was produced by Ric Ocasek on their major label debut in 1993.

The power pop bands from 1979-1983 not only used Beatle-type arrangements and harmonies, but Pete Townshend style power chords and also in the case of songs such as The Beat's "You won't be happy"(Paul Collins Beat)- Keith Moon styled solo drumming courtesy of influences from "My Generation," and "I can see for miles."

So when the Who says they were power-pop; they were prophets. I agree totally with that statements. Some of the ones that you missed was Phil Seymour's Precious to me (1981) - Dwight Twilley's drummer... and Let's Active's "Every word means no." in (1985).

-- I removed Ramones and Buzzcocks as you suggested, as you are probably correct. They are power pop, but only peripherally so, so they shouldn't be on this list.

Sensorium 23:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Subtractions from the song list

I found some of the recent subtractions from the song list unhelpful to the article -- especially the deletion of Material Issue, one of the most popular power pop bands of the last twenty years, and Pursuit of Happiness, who had one of the few Power Pop hits during their time period. So I added them back.

In addition, I removed the weird Pezband line in the middle of a paragraph about THE 80'S -- and in doing so also removed the line about Pezband "leading the charge" in the 70's. Pezband, although an important power pop band, was neither influential nor popular enough to be considered leading the charge during Cheap Trick and The Knack's heyday.

Sensorium 06:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I removed the whole list. A lot of genre articles tend to spawn lists of notable bands, songs or albums, but they're never appropriate, and consensus is always to remove them. If a song is so notable that the article is malinformative without it, then it should be mentioned and explained in the article. A list is going to be ignored by most anyone who doesn't already know about the genre, and is inherently made up of the editors' opinions. If there is significant discussion about which songs are the most notable in powerpop, then make a list called list of power pop songs or something, and ascribe those opinions to whoever holds them. Tuf-Kat 07:26, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. Sensorium 06:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Power pop - pop or rock?

Is power pop a form of pop or rock, or both? Pop templates do not feature power pop, but from its name alone, one would surmise it is a part of pop music. Mandel 01:11, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

It's both. Power Pop is often an amalgamation of rock and pop. That's my opinion at least. Though, I'd essentially consider rock a form of pop in many ways as well.

Sensorium 02:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] US Centered?

The term was well known in the UK but was slightly different in it's usage. The british bands sometimes used sixties references as well but included a smart punk edge into their music. Because Powerpop happened straight after the Punk explosion. The best known artists were The Vapors or The Jags - somebody remember them? There are some more relations to punk/garage/sixties punk. For further information please visit the Bomp Records page [1] or read the article about Garage Rock. You can also include The Who related Mod-Bands like The Jam, The Chords and so on. There has never been a Mod-Rock genre for them. So i think in some cases Powerpop is their cup of tea. Some more ideas: [2]. It is a littlebit strange dating Powerpop back into the sixties. It's not working. You can not make the complete British Invasion of the sixties a Powerpop thing. Otherwise you should correct the place of origin to Great Britain ;-) It seems to be the best way to describe Powerpop as a modern and polished form of Garage Rock. Mostly short and straight songs, sixties-pop (Beat music) influenced and played with punk-power. My english is not good enough to rework this article. Maybe someone can check this informations and add a few pionts.--212.80.224.243 19:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

You make excellent points. I've added a section in the article about late '70s UK groups and how by that time the term "power pop" had become ambiguous, with different meanings in the two countries. Starry Eyes 21:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with this. I think a lot of these bands don't qualify as power-pop at all. I don't think it's right to even credit The Beatles as power-pop, as the term developed after their demise. --No Underbites 03:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

First, thanks to Starry Eyes for his additions. :-) Now, I think parts of this article are problematic, in that they contain circular references, and the authors concentrate too much on the music, less on the term. I try to explain what I mean: The Cramps became a founder of the Psychobilly genre. Their music is somewhat pure Rock'n'Roll with tons of references to the music, movies, comics and and and of the 50s and early 60s. Following the idea of the Powerpop article, Elvis, Buddy Holly and Bill Haley were psychobillys. This is easy to understand, but lets get somewhat crazy now ;-): The australien band The Saints recorded what is called a Punk Rock album in 1976/77. As their contemporaries Radio Birdman, they never wanted to record what is called "a Punk Rock album". Both stood deep in the tradition of The Stooges and other Garage Rock bands, but their releases happened to coincide with the punk explosion. Depending to the Punk Rock article the term punk was applied to garage rock bands during the 70s. So the Saints and Radio Birdman recorded a garage album categorized as a punk album, but the term punk was used for garage bands. This disguise is a circular reference simply produced by replacing one term by an other term. There are no big musical differences between punk and garage, as there are no big differences between Powerpop and Beat music in the 60s. To my opinion the term powerpop is partially quoted out of context in this article. It seems better to put "Powerpop" into the right place - the temporary context - and the collisions with terms like (and bands depending to) Beat music, (the) British Invasion and Garage Rock are gone.

[edit] Power Pop

It is interesting to note that it is much easier to exclude artists from power pop genre,than to define them by it.Aimee Mann and Michael Penn have incorporated elements of songwriting (catchy melodies,layered harmonies,acoustic/electric guitar-based,brief solos,introspective lyrics,etc.)from power pop,but neither are mentioned as disciples of it.Similarly,Del Amitri,Tal Bachman,Fastball,The Jayhawks,10cc,Gerry Rafferty and Crowded House have all released material that must be considered mainstream power pop,but they are not limited stylistically to that niche.Nevertheless,all of them owe something to their previous generation,as one can hear Pete Ham's fills,or Eric Carmen's overproduction tendencies in the mix of many of their songs.The combination of Byrd-like 12 strings with Townsend power chords,thrown together with a soaring Justin Hayward tenor,backed up by reverbed Nash,Furay,and Young vocals and you get an irresistable blend of rock/folk/pop whose appeal will never die. A Charter Member

[edit] Starting list of songs

I've just started List of notable power pop songs from the list which was removed from the article. Still just a stub and needs more work, ordering, sorting, etc. I was thinking maybe sort into sons which were number 1 hits, songs which were in the top 10, etc., and alphabetize wtihin those. I think having a list like this is important, and in some ways more useful than List of power pop musicians because of the nature of the genere. This (IMO) is more a genre of singles - of big hit songs which get stuck in a lot of peoples heads and are often more well known than the musicians themselves (and almost always more well known than the album they were on). So anyhow, didn't have much time right now to do much with the list, but hopefully it can grow and improve... ENpeeOHvee 06:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing songs?

Removing The Knack from the list???? How can that be - that is so over the top Beatles as you can get down to the orange and yellow Capitol label on the 45 to the album cover to the "LOve me do" influence on "Good Girls Don't." But if it's true that you're reworking the list then I take back my statement. I've added to this list previously by researching books and the internet and like any style of music, Power Pop retains some of its features but added new tricks as well. It doesn't sound the same in the 00s as it did in the 70s... - but you can tell what it is.

69.111.166.32 17:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)