Talk:Dari (Afghanistan)
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Dari, also known as Farsi, is apparently similar in syntax to Farsi.
That is confusing.
According to http://www.darilanguageproject.org/2003_summary_of_findings.pdf, Dari the language of the Zoroastrians (not Persian?), as well as the Afghani dialect of Persian. Here too, there appears to be some confusion. At, http://www.persiangulfonline.org/aboutus/letters/SoroushRichardShehabi.htm, Soroush Richard Shehabi claims that Afghani's actually speak Farsi which is really just Persian. I just don't get it
There are in fact two Dari languages. (1) The variety of Persian spoken in Afghanistan, which is mutually intelligible with Farsi. (2) The Northwestern Iranian language spoken by the Zoroastrians of Yazd, Iran (also called Gabri). See: www.darilanguageproject.org.
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[edit] Removed
I removed these because they need to be integrated into the article not at the bottom. Falphin 20:55, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Roughly speaking, Dari is the language of the Sassanids and the official Zoroastrian Priesthood language. It emerged as the language of the Persians after the defeat of the Parthians by Cyrus in mid sixth century B.C. Dari is also refereed to as Middle Persian. The term "middle" Persian suggests the existence of an old Persian and a new Persian. The old Persian being the language of the Achamenians which was overshadowed by Greek after the conquests of Alexander the Great. The Dari emerged as the spoken language of the Persian courts of the Sassanids. The conquest of Moslems again broke the continues chain of Persian language and Arabic (for two hundred years, i.e. 6-8 century A.D.) became the official language . The Persians however did not forget their own language and little by little the Middle Persian was being shaped into new Persian but with the addition of a considerable amount of Arabic and Parthian words in Arabic script. This new style was the mother of both Farsi and Dari. Officially, Farsi is The Persian of Iran and Dari is the Persian spoken in Afghanistan.
Before Perusing any further, it is important to explain the term Iran. Ariyana of the Avesta [the book of Zoroaster] or Arya of Sanskrit [ancient Aryan/Indian language] is the land of the Aryans, a people of Central Asian Steppes who came down from beyond the Oxus river in about 2000 B.C. Afghans, Persians and Kurd are among the Aryan tribes. Most authors do not really distinguish between Iran, Aryan, and Persian. They use these terms to mean either race, language, culture or nationality. Iran is taken from Aryan which means the land of the Aryans, which is not an accurate term since most of Central and South Central Asia is Aryan. Persian is another confusing term which not only implies to the modern Iranian (nation) people but also to those who speak Persian (New Persian i.e. Farsi, Dari etc.). It is impossible to speak of the language and the land without using this western terminology which blindly throws everyone into incorrect or vague categories. I, however, will try to clarify the terms when using them.
The Old, Middle and New Persian are and represent the same language at three stages of its history. Persian was originated in Persa (Persis of Greeks and Fars of Arabs) and is differentiated by dialectical features, still easily recognizable from the dialects prevailing South, Centarl and South Western Asia. The new Persian remains close to the Middle Persian in many respects. However, New Persian has taken many words from Arabic and Parthian, as opposed to Middle Persian which was influenced, to a lesser degree, by Aramiac. The grammatical structure has also undergone minor changes, mainly in relations to verbal morphology and syntax. For example, in new Persian as in German, verbs usually end a sentence.
Ibn al-Muqaffa, in his Fihrist lists the five languages of Persia at the end of the Sassanid rule. Dari-the language of Fahla country (ancient Media); Dari-The language of the capital, Ctesiphon; Parsi-language of the Mobads and scholars; Suryani-spoken in Sawan, and finally Khuzi of Khuzistan. The last two are not Aryan but Semitic. Parsi was the official language of the state and the Zoroastrian religion, which is said to be the vehicle of literature later known as Dari. Of Dari, Ibn al-Muqaffa knew nothing of, thus he named Middle Persian Parsi, and used the term Dari to describe the dialect of Media. As for Dari, it was the usual spoken language not only in the capital but most likely of a large part of the empire also. Dari is derived from dar or darbari, meaning court language. In everyday conversation Dari was used and Parsi was the written and scholarly language. At the beginning these were little difference between Parsi and Dari. However, over the Years, Dari has evolved into a dialect of Middle Persian (Parsi), this distinction was realized and noted by the Sassanids towards the end of their rule. Dari, as a spoken language branched to different dialects, the most important of which was Dari, the language of Parthia which had preserved the oral literature of the poetic tradition of Parthia. Under the Sassanids prestige, Dari spread into the east and Transoxiana regions of the empire suppressing local tongs. By the 9th century the Dari of Khurasan was the dominant speaking language of the Sassanian empire. In the Middle of the 8th century Abu Muslim's Arab armies spoke Dari. And it is this language which kept a sense of unity among the "Arabized" Persians and thus emerged as a national identity through literature.
On the other hand, since Parsi (Middle Persian) was the official language, most of the government officials used it to keep records. With the advent of Islam Arabic slowly replaced Parsi as official language. The spoken language of Dari however remained intact. It was particularly strong in rural places especially among the dihqans who held on to it ever harder. The Shu'ubiyya controversy is an example of Persian (Lang.) nationalism. It is known that pre-Islamic Persia had some brilliant poetry, but the reason so little of it has survived as M. Boyce argues, is because most of the poetry was oral. When Arabic became the scholarly language, Dari, to a certain extent, was forgotten for a while. Although there are traces that indicate Arabic and Dari poetry flourishing side by side. As mentioned above, Paris as an official language was over shadowed by Arabic with the coming of the Moslems. Dari being an everyday language stored the folklore of the Persians (lang.) Thus, in order to revive the Persian literature one had to find a widely used Persian language. Dari presented the perfect tool for this task. However, Dari was a commoner language at the time, therefore, measures were taken to standardize and formalize Dari in order for it to be used in Royal courts. The earliest Dari writing goes back to 752 in letter form. However by the 10th century a tremendous amount of literature was written and translated into Dari. The first attempts to revive Persian was in poetic form. Among the first poets according to Tarikh-i Sistan, were Mohammad b. Wasif [Vasif], and Hanzala of Badghis. The lubabu's-albab of Mohammad Awfi claims one Abbas of Merw as the first poet, who composed a poem in honor of Khalifa al-Ma'mun on the occasion of his entry into that city [Marw] in 809 A.D. Ibn Wasif a secretary of Ya'qub b. al-Laith of the Saffarid dynasty, who praised the sultan, on his recent victory in Herat and Pushang in Arabic verses. Not understanding his secretary of chancery, Yaqub asked: "Why must something be recited that I can't understand?" Thus Mhd b. Wasif, to please the sultan began writing in Dari.
It is said that Dari poetry borrowed its verse-from Arabic literature. Hanzala and Ibn Vasif were the leading men, in local Persian courts, who led the way for a patriotic literary revival. Much credit also goes to dynasties of Tahirids, Saffarids, Samanids, and Ghaznavids and patrons such as bin lays of Saffar, Nasr II of Saman and Sultan Mahmud and Mas'ud of Ghazna who in their courts, gathered many poets and were patron of a magnificent yet lost art. The authors of all the works I've read, misuse the terms Iranian, Aryan, Persian, Dari and Parsi. It is in this shuffle that the right credit does not go to those who deserve it. Since Persia changed its name to Iran it has taken with it all the credit ever due to an Aryan. The Western world knows Persians through Greek records and consider Modern Iranians as the Persians which leaves both Afghanistan and Tajikistan, especially Afghanistan out of the picture.
~ Rameen Moshref
It is a common mistake to make. Afghanistan's major language is Pashto. The reason why people think that its farsi is due to the pashtoon's being the poorer ethnicity, and thus not having as much power as the dari speakers.
http://www.sabawoon.com/afghanpedia/Language.Dari.shtm
You can see in that link that dair is spoken by only around 30% of the country, not the 60% shown in this wikipedia entry.
Dari is spoken by 60 percent of Afghanistan's population, although it is the Native language of only 30% of Afghanistan's population, who are Tajiks. While Pashto being the Native language of the bigest Afghan Ethnic Group, is spoken by only 40% of Afghan population. Here's a trustable source:
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/af.html
[edit] Incorrect informations posted
Regarding the informations written about Dari in this article, I have some points to declare:
- Dari is not a dialect of Farsi (Persian) language of Iran
- Dari was not developed from Pahlawi Sasani as Farsi developped. In fact, Dari developed from Takhari, Partawi (Pahlawi Ashkani) and Soghdi languages
- Dari is a completely different language other than Gabri or Dari of Iran. Gabri or Dari of Iran is a dialect of Farsi, and there are major differences between them i.e. Vocabulary usage, Expressions, Dialect or accent, Writing style, etc. It would be illogical to refer Dari spoken in Afghanistan to the Dari/ Gabri of Iran.
- Dari itself has its own dialects i.e. Kabuli, Herawi/Herati, Takhari and Badakhshi.
- Dari was not distinguished because of the political means of the Pashtoon Government in Afghanistan. In fact, the researches taken out by great Tajik Afghan writers, historians, scholars and researchers proved that Dari developped from Takhari, Partawi and Soghdi languages.
In order to support my statements, here I cite some pieces of texts of old Farsi-Dari literature books:
- Some Manuscript writings on a stone found in one of the Kushanian Temples in Baghlan (a city in Afghanistan) in 1951 show that Dari developped from Takhari language. There are almost 160 words in 25 lines of Takhari language written in the Greek transcripts. In these manuscripts which are more than 1800 years old, one can clearly see the familiarities of Dari and Takhari languages. So it completely shows that Dari was NOT developped from Pahlawi Sasani as Farsi did.
- Mohammad Taqi Bahar, the great poet and writer of Iran, writes in his book "Sabk-Shunasi", vol.1: “...some people say that Dari is a developed dialect of Sughdi language, that the people of Bukhara, Samarqand and regions of Jaihun (Amu) river used to communicate in it for a long time. And some people, relying on the statements of Abdullah ibn-Muqaffa say that Dari was the language of cities and courts, and it was the softest and the most fluent language of the Sasanid period, and it contained mostly the eastern words, especially Balkhi words.” He then continues and gives his own point of view: “As after the coming of Islam, the people of Bukhara and Samarqand wrote many books in Dari, and the poets of Khorasan (Afghanistan) narrated poems in this language, so Dari came step by step from Khorasan to Iran. I can say as a conclusion that Dari is the language of Balkh and Bukhara.”
- Abdullah ibn Muqaffa writes in his book “Al-Fehrest” (378 JC) that: “Pahlawi (the old Farsi) refers to Pahla, the language of Five cities: Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan, Mah Nawand and Azerbaijan. But Dari was the language of citizens (people of cities) and people in the kings’ courts used to speak in Dari. It is the language of Khorasan people and the East, mostly that of the people of Balkh (a city in the north of Afghanistan). While Farsi was the language of religious people, by which the people of Pars (Iran) communicated.”
I suggest that one should not rely only on the researches of recent Iranian writers. He/she should study the works and researches of Afghan Historians and Writers as well, so that he could well analyze a point. I can provide further Bibliography and Sources, if one was interested.
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- All major sources support the fact that Afghanistan's "Dari" is the same as Iran's "Farsi". The developement of the Iranian languages is well-researched and well-documented. Today's "Dari" in Afghanistan is only the Eastern dialect of Farsi and has Western-Iranian origins (even though the dialect itself emerged in Eastern Iran). I do not know what language "Takhari" is, but if you are talking about Tocharian language, the language was not even Iranic and its recostruction is difficult (in other words: we do not know much about that language). The Sogdian language was an Eastern-Iranian language and totally different from "Dari" in grammar and vocabulary, although some Sogdian words have survived in modern Persian. The only living offspring of Sogdian is the Yaghnobi language - an Eastern-Iranian language, much closer to Pashto than to "Dari".
- Claiming that "Afghanistan's Dari developed out of Sogdian and not of Persian" is like claiming that "English developed out of Italic and not of Germanic languages" ... however, it is a well-researched fact that English is a Germanic language, although there are more Latin words in modern English than Germanic ones.
- And regarding Abdullah ibn Muqaffa: he was no language-expert, but simply a historian. He neither differenciates between dialects nor between languages. While he considers "Dari, Pahlavi, and Farsi" different languages (although even back then these dialects were part of the same language), he counts Semetic Assyrian ("Khuzi") among the "Iranian languages" ... from this, it's clear that - as a historian - Abdullah ibn Muqaffa simply recorded the common names of those languages and dialects without doing his own research. Other writers, such as Biruni or Tabari, did not differenciate between "Dari" and "Farsi" ...
- Tājik 21:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Khoob! Pesh e jaananeh e maa kishmish o pumbdaaneh yakeist! What language did Amir Khusrau of Delhi use whose poetry took Iran, Turkey and Mawrannahar by storm in the 13th century? Dari or Parsi? Besides what does Hafiz Shirazi refer to in his line "Taa khwajeh mei khurad beghazalha e pahlavi"? Did Hafiz write in a different language sitting in Ruknaabad, Shiraz thousands of miles away from Delhi where Khusrau had written his poetry? 59.176.37.39 06:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)Lutfullah
[edit] Comments on the new Article posted
The new article posted about the Dari language contains lots of contradictions and lots of incorrect information. It seems to me that the writer is backed by his personal views of todays political situations between Afghanistan and Iran.
Here are my comments:
1. In the section of History, the 2nd paragraph, the author says that there's no difference between Aryan, Iranian and Persian. However, Persian is a mixed Elam-Aryan civilisation, while Aryan and Iranian can be considered the same. Iran, the current country, was always known as Persia or Fârs. It was in 1935 that Reza Shah Pahlawi changed the name of Persia to Iran, by the support of Nazi regime in Germany. Ariana or Aryana is general name used for all the regions of Transoxiana (Tajikistan, Uzbekistan), Persia (Iran), Khorasan (Afghanistan) and parts of Pakistan (northern parts of Sindh river). By changing the name of Persia to Iran, it doesn't make it to become the same Great and Ancient Ariana, however today's Iran is part of the Great Ariana, as Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are parts of Ariana. No matter the word "Iran" was initially used during the Sassanids.
2. In the section of History, 3rd paragraph (Persian originated in Persis) and 5th paragraph (Dari, a spoken language of Parthia..... Dari spread to the east and Transoxiana regions). This is the bigest error and incorrect information posted.
In fact, the Persian language (if we consider it both as Farsi and Dari) originated and developed in Transoxiana (north of Oxus river) and Khorasan (the old Afghanistan regions), and then emerged to the west, to Persia (Iran) during or just before the Sasanids. And during the ruling of Parthians, it was Aramaic,Pahlavi and Parthi/Parti languages common in Persia, NOT Dari. Here are the sources from both Iranian and Afghan historians and researchers:
- “The language of Dari has almost a two thousand-year-old history. It came into being in Khorasan before the Islamic period. It was at first the native language of Khorasanis (people of Khorasan) and then extended to the west (modern Iran). ” History of Afghanistan’s Literature, Moh. Haidar Zhobl, Maiwand Publications, 1379 Peshawar (p.22)
- “Dari emerged for the first time in the East (Khorasan), while at that time the language of Persians (Iranians) was Pahlawi. At that period in Iran, all religious and scientific works were written in Pahlawi, even the poems that were narrated in Iran, Hamadan, Azerbaijan and Tabaristan (today Mazandaran) were in Pahlawi and Tabari languages. However, all old Farsi poems which were narrated in Khorasan by Hanzala Badgheesi, Mohammad Sakazi and Busam-gurd Khareji were written in fluent Dari language.” Ariana Encyclopaedia (Vol.5), Encyclopaedia Association of Afghanistan, 1348 Kabul (p.400)
- “Until the fourth Hijri century (9th BCE), Dari was associated uniquely to Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana and it was not common in Iran, even a single poem or book was not found to be written in Dari in Iran.” [History of Afghanistan’s Literature, Moh. Haidar Zhobl, Maiwand Publications, 1379 Peshawar (p.24)] “…and after the 5th Hijri century, Dari extended to the Persian territories.” [“Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana; the region of Dari’s emergence”, Mr. Kawyani, Khawaran.com website]
- Dr. Said Nafisi, professor in the University of Tehran, writes: “According to some very clear proofs, it is evident that Dari came into being in Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana, and then extended to the Iranian regions, which were not its local territories.” (Reporting from: “Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana; the region of Dari’s emergence”, Mr. Kawyani, Khawaran.com website)
- According to Prof. Shahrestani, Dari was formed during the rule of Behman Ibn-e Espandyar, one of the Kavi (Persian: Kayani) Kings in Balkh, who ruled probably before the Common Era. In several old books, it is mentioned that “At the period of Behman’s ruling, son of Espandyar, people came from different regions to his court and did not understand each others’ languages. Therefore, he ordered the scholars to make a fluent Farsi language, and named it Dari.”
- Mohammad Taqi Bahar, famous Iranian Poet, writes in his book Sabk Shunasi (Vol.1): “Some people say that Dari is the same old Persian, others say that Dari is a dialect of the Soghdi language common in the north of Amu Darya and Samarqand. While others relying on the statements of Abdullah ibn-e Muqaffa believe that Dari was the language of the Capital [city]. It was the most fluent language of the Sassanid period and contained a large number of Eastern words, especially those of Balkh.” He then continues and admits that: “As the people of Samarqand and Bukhara (regions in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) wrote text and poetry books in Dari after Islam and the poets of Khorasan (Afghanistan) also narrated their poems in this language, Dari came step by step from Khorasan to Iran. I can say as a conclusion that Dari is the language of the people of Bukhara and Balkh.”
- Mr. Jalal Matini, chief editor of the magazine "Iran-Shenasi" and former director of Mashad's University in Iran, writes: "The original teritory of Persian is Transoxiana..... Persian was the language of Transoxiana (Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) and Khorasan (the old Afghanistan) in the 3rd and 4th Hijri centuries. It then emerged to Iran and Indian subcontenent during 8 and 9 centuries." (Iranshenasi Magazine, Number 2, Year 2002, Iranshenasi.net)
So according to all Iranian and Afghan scholars, Persian (Farsi or Dari) came into existence in Khorasan and Trans-Oxiana almost 2000 years ago and then migrated to the west, to Persia.
3. In the section of History, 4th paragaraph, a great error in reporting the statements of Abdullah ibn Muqaffa. According to this article, Abdullah ibn-Muqaffa pronounced Dari as the main language of Fahla, which is reported totally incorrect. It was Pahlavi the language of Pahla, not Dari.
Here's the statements of Abdullah ibn Muqaffa in his book Al-Fehrest: “Pahlawi (old Farsi) refers to Pahla, which is the name of five cities: Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan, Mah Nawand and Azerbaijan. But Dari is the language of citizens and that of Court (King’s court). It is one of the languages of Khorasan (the old Afghanistan) and eastern regions; the language style of Balkh (city in northern Afghanistan) has more influence on it. While Parsi (Farsi) is the language of Zoroastrian religious leaders, and the people of Persia (Iran) spoke in this language.” Here's the source: "History of the Philosophical sciences of Iran" (tarikh wa uloom-e falsafa-e irani), Abdul Rafi Haqiqat, Komash Publications, 1372 Tehran, page 39
There are other incorrect information posted about Arabic's influence on Dari and Farsi, as well as about the origin of the Dari language. For a detailed information, please CHECK THIS
It has been the third time that the External Link which I add to the main page of the article is being removed by the user named User:Tajik. He wrote in the comments that the link did not work, however there is neither any problem with the link, nor any violation with the copyright. The main article posted about Dari contains lots of incorrect and inaccurate information, so I did not try to modify it. However, I provided that link under the External Links area. It would be better to defend his point of views in here, in discussion, instead of removing the link. Thank you
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- The main article is based on 1st hand information from authoritative sources, such as Encyclopaedia of Islam or Encyclopaedia Iranica. You are pushing for a wrong pseudo-scientific version which has no support and is based on pure assumptions. You use wrong quotations and base most of your thesis on works written by known pseudo-scientists and people who openly declare their hate against Iran, Persians, and so on.
- Here is the article of the Iranica - an authroitative source written by a real expert and based on historical documents. Your "blog" is NOT a scientific page and has no place in here. Please stop messing up the article or I will report you to admins. Tājik 15:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest that in the first step the errors that are present in the current article should or even must be corrected. I pointed out the main and principle errors in this discussion [Dari developed in Persia and emerged to the east to Khorasan and Transoxiana; Dari was spoken during the Parthians; Dari was the language of Fahla... I wonder how do you call it an authentic information] and there is no doubt that the article is written in favour of personal interests for Iran.
[edit] Contradiction
The main article has become much more accurate. However, there exists only one major contradition which needs to be modified. Here, I am pointing out that point:
1. First let me copy the Persian translated text of Ibn-Muqaffa: پهلوی منسوب است به پهله که نام پنچ شهر است: اصفهان، ری، همدان، ماه نهاوند و آذربایجان. و اما دری زبان شهر نشینان بود و درباریان با آن سخن می گفتند و منسوب به دربار پادشاهی است و از میان زبان های اهل خراسان و مشرق، زبان مردم بلخ در آن بیشتر بود. اما پارسی، زبان مؤیدان (روحانیون زردتشتی) بود که در پارس مردم به آن دین معتقد بودند
So, Pahlavi the language of Pahla (Medes), Dari the language of Court and the Citizens of Khorasan (eastern Persia), and Parsi the language of Mobidan (Zoroastrian religious) in Persia. But in the article it has been written: "In everyday conversation Dari was used and Parsi was the written and scholarly language"......"The spoken language of Dari however remained intact." I think this point is in contradicion both with the statements of Muqaffa and with the contents of the main article i.e. "Dari is the language of the Sassanids Court and the official Zoroastrian priesthood language."......"Dari emerged as the spoken language of Persian courts of Sassanids." But in fact:
- Dari was the official language of Sassanids Court
- Dari was the language (spoken and official) of Eastern Persia (Khorasan) i.e. Balkh, according to Ibn Muqaffa (Source Encyclopedia Iranica G. LINK)
- Parsi the language (spoken and official) of Mobidan or Zoroastrian leaders
- Dari was the spoken language ONLY in the eastern Persia (Khorasan) and NOT all over Persia, because it was Parsi the spoken and official language of Zoroastrians in Persia
- Parsi was NOT the official language of the Sassanid Court (it was Dari, as a general agreement and according to many sources) but only the official language of Zoroastrians.
2. Not only Parsi/Farsi got affected by Arabic, but Dari did either. Both Farsi and Dari contain equal combination of Arabic vocabulary. The reason that Dari reserved its pure and original language style and structure, is that in the recent times Dari speaking people (Khorasanis) did not have any direct interaction with other foreign languages, which was because of the Political situations in Afghanistan. (Although the language of Tajikistan severly got affected) As for Farsi, it was influenced by European languages, mainly by French, especially after the Qajar Dyanasty and mostly remarkably during the Pahlavi dynasty. And in the recent years, Dari is suffering from an important impression of Foreing languages. So by saying "Arabic slowly influence Farsi and Dari remained intact" is incorrect according to me.
What is your opinion Tājik? This (the 1st point) is the only major contradiction, according to me. I just wanted to make a confirmation and if you are agree, I will make some modifications (not any major modification) and then you can verify. And if you are not agree, then what are the sources that you are relying on? Ariana310 12:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Origin of the term
A user has inserted the claim that some scholars (?) claim that Dari' is derives from Darra and that it developed out of Sogdian, Tocharian, and Parthian?!
Are there ANY reliable sources for the claim?!
Except for the first part of the claim (Darra --> Dari), all other parts are totally illogical and NO serious scholars would ever claim such a nonsense.
Sogdian did have small influences on Persian vocabulary, but deffinitly not on its grammar or structure. Today, Yaghnobi is the ONLY language belived to be a descendant of Sogdian. The Tocharian language was neither an Iranian nor an Indo-Iranian language. It was a totally different, mostly unknown branch of the Indo-European languages and had NO influence on Persian.
"Parthian" - meaning the original language of the early Parthians - was a distinct East-Iranian dialect. The Parthian kings of Persia spoke a WESTERN-Iranian dialect, closely related to Persian. Linking the Parthian language to Tocharian and Sogdian, and claiming that these 3 gave birth to modern Khorasanian dialects of Persian is pure nonsense.
Tājik 01:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- Probably an inaccurate word was used (developed from), it must be used "got influenced". As you are already agree, Soghdi had an important influence on Dari (The case of Yaghnoobi dialect is not the main point) Takhari or Tocharian language spoken during the period of Kushans, did also influence the eastern dialects of Persian language: Dari. Many inscriptions found in Kushan Temples in Northern Afghanistan written in Takhari language (Western Tocharian, Class B language) with Greek script are the evidences which support this opinion. Since I cannot provide any non-Afghan reliable source on this matter, I will remove this point.
- It is already known that Persian language (both Dari and Farsi) developed from the Pahlavi language (Old Persian). According to the Iranian scholars, Pahlavi has been divided into two dialects: pahlavi-e ashkani and pahlavi-e sassani. Pahlavi being already developed from Parthian language, is again divided by scholars into those two dialects, which always creates a misconception. Pahlavi-e ashkani is the same Parthian language (also known as Parti or Parsawi), and Pahlavi-e sassani was the newer dialect which developed from Parthian language. According to many trustable sources, Parthian language is an Avestan language, which developed from Bactrian languages. It first developed in Central Asia and then migrated to Persia or Parthia by the Parthian people. So it was stated in the text, that Dari developed from Parti (Ashkanian Pahlavi) which is an undisputable fact. Even in the wikipedia article about Parthian language, it has been written that: This feature made Parthian retain many archaic Eastern Iranian features. This retention was probably due to the fact that the Parthian dynasty was founded by the Parni tribe. The tribe had migrated from the steppes of Central Asia into Parthia. The Parni or Parnae originally were speakers of an Northeastern Iranian language closely related with other languages of the area such as Scythian, Sogdian and Bactrian. The study of the Indo-Iranian tribes reveal that it was not uncommon for the tribes to adopt the local language, beliefs and customs of the peoples among whom they had settled whether through migration or conquest. This was especially true of the nomadic steppe tribes who formed the core of the Indo-Iranian world. A good example of this phenomenon in the words of University of London Professor Mary Boyce were "the Parni, merging themselves with the Parthians." (i:e the peoples already present in the province of Parthia). Ariana310 11:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
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- These are unsourced claims, but no facts. First of all, the Tocharian language was not the language of the Kushans, but Bactrian. At that time, Persian was not used in that region, and the "house-language" of the Kushan kings had no influences on the language of the Sassanids.
- The text you have copied in no means supports your claim. It onyl says that the Parthains once moved from Central Asia to Pars and Mesopotamia. This is a well known fact. But what has this to do with the language?! The influence was vice versa: the Persians and Medians influenced the Parthians, and after a few decades, they adopted the Western-Iranian dialects, one of them being the so-called Parthian language.
- Do you have any reliable (=scholarly) sources for your claims?!
- Tājik 16:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Here's the article of CAIS (The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies). Let me cite the exact text: Middle Dari was spoken from 3rd century to 9th and is related to several other Central Asian tongues such as Sogdian, Chrosmian and also Parthian languages. Parthian was the language of the Parthian Empire (Arsacid). Parthian, though left some influences on middle Dari, declined when the Sassanian power expanded. It clearly indicates that Dari was influenced by Soghdian and Parthian languages, which justifies my two points.
- I already stated that Parti (pahlavi-e ashkani) being developed from Bactrian and Soghdian languages, made a grand influence on Dari as it developed in Central Asia and then migrated to Persia or Parthia by the Parthian people. If you deny that Dari did not develop from "Pahlavi-e Ashkani", then what your claims are about the development and creation of Dari language. Dari was not created as a pure independant language by a group of people who already spoke other language. The emergence of Dari in Khorasan and Transoxiana is a clear fact, so there's no doubt that Bactrian languages, Soghdian and Pahlavi (mainly pahlavi-e ashkani or parti) were the referenced languages for it. Ariana310 05:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Here's another detailed article about the Parthian (Parti) and Pahlavi languages, focusing on the history of Persian language (Farsi-e Dari). In this article, you will also find some sources from Western and European Scholars about how Parthian language influenced Dari and Farsi. CLICK HERE Ariana310 16:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Your conclusion is totally wrong. Because the Parthian language did not develope in Bactria, as you claim. The Parthians adopted that language when they moved westward to Persis and Media. The Parthian language was, like Dari, a Western Iranian language - Sogdian and Bactrian were East Iranian dialects.
- The entire Persian language, of which literary Dari was a varity, was brought to Khorasan by the Persians - before and after Islam. It was the literary standard that was later exported from Khorasan to the West by the Samanids and Seljuqs. The language itself did not develope in the West.
- Let me give you an example: the English language developed in what we now call "England", having more recent ancestors in Central Europe (modern northern Germany). The English language was brought to America by the English settlers. Today, the American English varity has significant influence on all other languages, including the related Germanic languages. But this does not mean that the English language itself developed in America, only because - nowadays - America is the cultural center of the English language.
- 1200 years ago Khorasan was the "cultural center" of the Persian language. This language was known as the "Dari" language, the "language of kings". And as a "language of kings" it was exported from Khorasan to all parts of the ISlamic world. But the ORIGIN of the language was - and that's fact - the southwestern region of ancient Persia, modern Fars in Iran.
- Tājik 18:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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- You did not give any response based on historical facts with sources, instead you give me an example. You could not refuse my statements by a solid source. You cannot justify your claim by saying that Bactrian and Sogdian are eastern Iranian dialects and Parthian is a western dialect. In the article of CAIS (The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies) it is clearly stated: Parthian is related to several other Central Asian tongues such as Sogdian So your claim is completely incorrect and baseless. And then furthermore, it says: Parthian, though left some influences on middle Dari, declined when the Sassanian power expanded. In addition, Dari was influenced by Parthian language. In [Iranica] it has been mentioned: Dar^ was contrasted to Pahlavi, sometimes when the latter term designated literary Middle Persian, and sometimes when it referred to Medo-Parthian dialects SO YOUR CLAIM IS PROVED COMPLETELY INCORRECT AND BASELESS.
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- Dari did NOT develop in the south western regions of Greater Iran or Persia. Please show me any source or reference? In fact, Dari's main territory from where it developed is Khorasan and Transoxiana, especially the Bactrian regions. Here I am writing the original Persian texts of Iranian scholars:"
- زبان فارسی دری اصلاً لهـجـه اهالی ماوراءالنهـر، سمرقنـد و بخـارا است که در اين جای ها تاجيـکـان زنـدگی می کـنند(تاجیکان در مسیر تاریخ، محمد تقی بهار، گردآورنده ميرزا شکور زاده، انتشارات بين المللی الهدی،1372، صفحه 45)
- زادگاه زبان و ادب فارسي خراسان و ماوراء النهر (فرارود) است. زبان فارسي زبان مردم خراسان و ماوراء النهـر در قرن سوم و چهـارم هجـري در طي هشت نـه قرن به سراسر ايران و سرزميـن هاي غـير ايراني، آناتولي، شبه قاره هـند، و بالکان و چـين، راه يافت (Dr.Jalal, Director of Iranshenasi No.2 Year 2002 (but this number is not available online)
- Even if you cannot provide any source to support your claim (Dari was created in the southwestern Iran), at least just provide me the name of a single work which was written in "Persian (Farsi-Dari)" in Western regions of Persia (West of Khorasan) before the 7th century. It is very strange that according to you, Dari was created in the western regions of Persia, but no single Persian work was written in that region before the 7th century. In fact, all the Persian works until the 10th century were whether in Transoxiana (Bukhara, Samarqand, Merv), Khorasan (Balkh, Seestan) or Khwarazm. REMEMBER I ASKED FOR PERSIAN WORKS, NOT FROM MIDDLE PERSIAN OR OLD PERSIAN (Pahlavi or Parthian). Ariana310 20:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Dari did NOT develop in the south western regions of Greater Iran or Persia. Please show me any source or reference? In fact, Dari's main territory from where it developed is Khorasan and Transoxiana, especially the Bactrian regions. Here I am writing the original Persian texts of Iranian scholars:"
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- If you could not refuse by any trustable source the influence of Parthian language on Dari (of course you can't, because I gave you reference to Iranica and CAIS (The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies)) and the creation of Dari in Khorasan and Transoxiana, I will remove the "accuracy tag" from the History Section. Ariana310 20:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Create new page for the debate?
This article is far too complex and confusing. The entire history section needs to be rewritten for a much more general audience, and without the very lengthy and unencyclopedic discourse on the academic debate over the relative origins of Dari and Farsi.
May I suggest that, if this material is of great interest, it be moved to a page called something like "Controversy over the origins of Dari and Farsi", and linked to from this page? It would be far less offputting to the general user, but still available to those who need it. -- TinaSparkle 11:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- If you mean the debate in this Discussion page, so it is not really so long. Normally the discussion pages get too long. And if there would me more users in the discussion, other than me and User:Tajik, so of course it would be useful to create such a page.
- But if you mean the main article in the wikipedia page about Dari, so I would prefer to conserve the contents of the article in the same page, and those who have enough authentic information with reliable sources can edit the article. The main article was very much complicated and contained several contradictions. I edited it up a while ago, and it seems clear (in presentation) so far. Ariana310 17:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
