Talk:Bloodhound

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Dogs Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Dogs, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Dogs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

This page relates to the WikiProject Belgium, a project to create and improve Belgium-related Wikipedia articles. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, all interested editors are welcome!

Contents 1 Vulnerable Native Breed 2 Removed 3 "It is believed that..." 4 Alternative source of Bloodhound history 5 Correction 6 Commentary 7 hoax? 8 Images 9 Mantrailing 10 Blood Hounds

[edit] Vulnerable Native Breed

This breed is classed in Britain as a VNB - a breed which originated in the UK but now has registration numbers with the Kennel Club of less then 300 puppies per year.

I'm a Canadian teeneager on a gap year before Uni and I'm really interested in this. Would anyone like a VNB paragraph/link on this page? I can write it, but am ignorant about formatting etc etc. I'm also trying to put together a whole collection on all 29 breeds on this list, including history and so. Please contact me either on my talk page or at green_ied_dragon@hotmail.com

--The Wizard of Magicland 18:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer WoM. As far as the UK's Bloodhound Club (BC) and Association of Bloodhound Breeders (ABB) is concerned, this is a sore topic, since behind their back, officials within the UK Kennel Club have introduced a controversial outcross using the VNB scheme as the pretext. This has resulted in the BC and ABB requesting the removal of the Bloodhound from the KC's VNB register.

As far as the Bloodhound page is concerned, I think we could have an article on Outcrosses, then a link to the KC's VNB scheme as an article under The Kennel Club [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennel_Club_%28UK%29 ] . Sanft 13:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Note to Wizard: I don't know if the situation is similar to the US, but I think it is similar to the UK. The number of puppies registered in a country's Kennel Club has very little to do with how many new pups are actually whelped. I find it very difficult to believe that the Bloodhound is genuinely endangered, although it is certainly true that there are not very many relative to certain other breeds. Most dogs are not registered with a national kennel club. Don't forget that. They are family pets. The Bloodhound will never be a very popular family pet, as he requires too much work and attention from the owner. He is too big, too messy, needs a great deal of exercise, and stinks (to put it mildly). In the US, I believe that last year (2005), out of some 15,000 newly registered dogs, the AKC reported 300 Bloodhounds. Bloodhounds are needed for police and rescue work the world over, so I don't think the Bloodhound is going anywhere soon. I'd worry about the English Foxhound more if I were you. You guys have apparently taken a cue from the political correctness movement in our country, and committed an (arguably) equal folly, but I'll leave that for the Talk Page on Fox hunting legislation. The American Foxhound is safe and secure. Two other magnificent breeds. 66.108.4.183 11:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

I agree with Allen Roth's points here.

Curiously the UK Kennel Club is using photos of an unregistered hound pack to illustrate their [bloodhound trials], where hounds hunt singly. If the UK packs were included, then the number of bloodhound puppies born in the UK each year would be well over 300 :-)

Sanft 09:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Sanft. I failed to mention what is also very important, especially for breeds like the Bloodhound, where the proportion of dogs actually used for the original purpose (for which the breed was created) is relatively high to the number of actual dogs of the breed> What I mean is, take the Cocker Spaniel. I assume it was originally created for some task. Now, today, the number of cockers used for hunting or trapping (whatever the original purpose was) is small relative to the total number of cockers. Almost all are probably either family pets (the vast majority) or show dogs. Take the Bloodhound or Foxhound or German Shepherd, on the other hand. A much larger percentage of all such dogs is actually used for the original purpose. Now--I doubt very much that even most of the Bloodhounds owned by governmental and police bodies are registered with a kennel club. Licensed, maybe. But that's not the same thing. If the statistics used in the designation of the UK's "vulnerable native breed" come from a UK National Kennel Club, the fact that even working Bloodhounds are probably not registered in such a kennel club is even more supportive of my argument earlier. Consider the numbers: I believe there are about 30-40 million dogs in the US. So, in any given year, there must be at least 1 million in all the litters, yet only 15,000 were registered. I rest my case. I doubt whether the Bloodhound is endangered at all. The number of Bloodhounds registered in the UK for 2005 given by Wizrd above also seems to indicate how few are registered: Three hundred? That could be as small as 40 litters. QED. And, I continue to maintain that the Bloodhound is not a breed native to the UK. I accept that differences of opinion can exist, but I have done a little more research, which continues to confirm that the Breed originated in Belgium/France, and was brought to England by Guilliame le Conquerant...(yes, I did some reading in French lol). Even the UK Bloodhound Club site linked above does not deny that the Bloodhound originated in Belgium; it merely says that there's no evidence for it, but the site does not offer any evidence, or even an account, for the claim that the breed originated in the UK. That site also denies the source of the name as "Pure-blooded," but the alternative--tracking blood--seems less likely to me. Did the Bloodhound ever scent for blood? Didn't it always operate from skin cells? Anyone is invited to comment on this topic, which I have not researched. Anyway, bottom line, I merely wanted to mention that working Bloodhounds are also most likely not registered with a kennel club either, and I suspect that with a breed like the Bloodhound, the number of working dogs is quite significant relative to the number of Bloodhounds as family pets. 66.108.106.230 18:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

[edit] Removed

Removed the following from article, as it's not true--all dogs can scent in the air and after a rain. See article for better description.

Bloodhounds, unlike many breeds of dog, have the ability to follow a scent in the air. Most breeds follow the scent marks on the ground or on nearby objects. This is why many dogs will lose a scent after rain, or if it crosses water. The Bloodhound's nose is so sensitive, it is able to pick up the much more diffuse scent from the air.

Elf | Talk 13:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "It is believed that..."

In the "Scenting Ability" section, the last sentence uses a common weasel term: "It is believed that pendulous ears and moist, pendulous lips...". I know this is a minor complaint, and the knowledge is less than arcane, but is there a source we can cite? – ClockworkSoul 15:49, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You're right. I probably wrote that myself (for shame) and I'll see whether I can backtrack to where I got the info. Elf | Talk 20:41, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have cleaned up this article somewhat, and clarified some of the issues raised on this page. I've also added a few additional details. This article needs better organization and fuller treatment; compare Basset Hound, which is clearer and more informative. I will try to re-write when I have more time.66.108.4.183 16:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)Allen Roth

[edit] Alternative source of Bloodhound history

A comprehensive, well researched and referenced, and generally well written history of the bloodhound by Mac Barwick of the (UK) Bloodhound Club (http://www.bloodhoundclub.co.uk/History/index.htm) takes issue with a number of assertions on this page. These include the place of origin of the bloodhound (Britain rather than Belgium/France), the general lineage of the bloodhound (not clearly related to either the St. Hubert hound or the Talbot hound), the earliest known reference to the bloodhound (mid-1300s rather than 1000), and the origin of the name ("blood-seeking hound" rather than "pure-bred hound"). He also provides the origin of the misinformation in each case.--Bgungle 16:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Not surprised that a UK source claims the Bloodhound was created in Britain: it is virtually indisputable that all early hounds stem originally from France or surrounding areas (e.g. Belgium). As an American, I would love to say otherwise, but those facts are cited everywhere, even as to the origins of the American Foxhound (a champion of which I once owned, before I discovered the magnificence and sweetness of the Bloodhound). I will admit that, as I wrote above, this article is really poorly organized and written, and even that some of its statements are possibly incorrect (I only supplied a few corrections after I came upon it) but, while the St. Hubert monastery story may be incorrect, the origins of the Bloodhound (and most of the early Hound breeds) are clearly France and Belgium. The American Foxhound was created in the 1700s after George Washington received a gift of French Hounds from General LaFayette, which were mixed with the English Foxhounds that were brought here (I mean the United States); the English Foxhound had been created in the time of K. Henry VIII by mixing the Greyhound, the Fox Terrier, and the English Bulldog. I will take a look at your link, to see if I may be mistaken. 66.108.4.183 18:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

The points made here by 66.108.4.183 aka Allen Roth appear to be more appropriate for placing at a History section of Scenthounds [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scenthound ].

I also agree with Mac Barwick's account on History and Origin of name [ http://www.bloodhoundclub.co.uk/History/80.htm#VIII ]. Surely the point of a global encyclopedia is to present all credible alternatives, rather than just the most acceptable to breeders?

ed. Sanft 11:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correction

–In the American antebellum South, the Bloodhound was frequently used to track runaway slaves, which accounts for the large number of Bloodhounds and breeders still located in that region. Bloodhounds, which are almost always used in a pack, do not attack upon reaching their quarry, as many erroneously believe, but surround him and bay, alerting the searchers.

—The tracking of slaves was a use in all existing states prior to the civil war era not only the south. The most common use of Bloodhounds, the tracking of crimminals was and is still very common. The use of bloodhounds as slave tracking bloodthirsty monsters was picked up and exagerated by the media esp. abolitionist newspapers of the era after the publication of Uncle Toms Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe.

– Bloodhounds have also been and still can be used to track and alert their master to large game such as deer and elk through heavily wooded areas as well, this was the main use by the royalty of europe that caused the name we use today. The intentional breeding and conditioning out of the kill and attack instincts of the breed originated so that the master could kill the prey came during this time period. Bloodhounds that are used for animal and offlead people tracking require intensive training due to the fact that once on a trail a bloodhound will sometimes follow the trail until it finds the quarry or collapses which may be many miles away from it master.

–Bloodhounds used today normally work alone as a 1 handler 1 dog team rather than in packs, due to the tendency of all hound breeds to play follow the leader. Bloodhounds can work in packs but that practice has been rarely followed since the 1920's in law enforcement and rescue work.

–A handler / bloodhound team used for law enforcement or rescue work normally requires 3 - 5 years of training to be come proficient and regular daily / weekly training in all weather and all conditions to become very dependable and capable. Training include trail laying, work with cadaver/ body recovery, subject identification from a line up of similar test subjects, and socialization/familiarization to any of the environemnts it may be called to work in (Urban, rural, suburban mountains swamps etc.) Proficient Bloodhounds have been used as evidence in crimminal cases due to the ability of highly trained bloodhounds to identify suspects and pick them out of a lineup by only their individual scent and the trail that they leave.

Mac's owner--71.28.195.143 21:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commentary

Slavery was illegal in states other than the "South" prior to the War Between the States. Consequently, tracking runaway slaves was an operation carried out almost exclusively by Southerners. Although, as recounted in the famous case Dred Scott v. Sandford, slaveowners did indeed venture into non-Slave States in pursuit of their quarry, the use of Bloodhounds to track slaves was clearly restricted to Southerners. Of course, Bloodhounds had been used to track escaped prisoners throughout the United States. Nevertheless, the prominence of Breeders and Bloodhounds in the South is clearly apparent even in the twenty-first century. Anyone interested in acquiring a Bloodhound will notice this almost immediately upon beginning research into breeders.

It is rare for Bloodhounds to be used for tracking game such as deer or elk; the Coonhound or other scenthounds are typically used for this purpose. Bloodhound use is generally confined to tracking human beings: e.g. lost children, escaped prisoners, earthquake victims, etc.

The linkage of the Bloodhound (or any other scenthound, for that matter) with aggression or killing is extremely doubtful. It is unlikely that the kill instinct had to be "removed" from the Bloodhound by the time the breed was created, as that instinct had long ago been systematically eliminated from the dog in general (with the exception of fighting breeds or guarding breeds) during the process of domestication. In addition, the "voice" was bred into many of the scenthounds precisely because of the likely separation of the trackers from the hounds (or hound) during the chase; the characteristic sound of the hound was specifically designed to be both heard from afar, and also easily identifiable to the searchers, indicating that the hounds had cornered their quarry. The American Foxhound, in particular, has always been noted for its melodious tones. As an example of the absence of agression in such hounds, a cornered fox is occasionally thrown to the foxhounds at the conclusion of a hunt, for the specific purpose of reinforcing their hunting (tracking) instinct. In the ordinary course of events, the hounds will never attempt to kill or eat the fox even after cornering. Aggression and tracking are not linked. This is a common misconception. "Hunting dogs," of whatever group--whether Pointers, Setters, or Hounds, are used as part of the sport of hunting, not for attacking or killing. The Bloodhound, especially, is known as one of the gentlest breeds, even quite timid, for the most part. 66.108.4.183 03:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

You should create an account rather than do it as an anon ip user! - Trysha ^(talk) 21:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] hoax?

On 2006 June 16, anonymous IP 66.108.4.183 added an unsourced story about a bloodhound named Nash. Frankly, it looks like a joke at the expense of Wikipedia, so I'm taking the liberty of deleting it. If someone (presumably a resident of New York City) can provide confirmation that these claims are factual and that the dog deserves to be internationally known (which I doubt), then feel free to restore it. --KSmrq^T 05:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[ Sorry KSmrq, I haven't worked out how to add a separate entry and embed wiki links yet :-( Sanft 10:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC) ]

I was attracted to this article by the google search summary:

Bloodhound - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bloodhound is prone to hip dysplasia, and is the breed that is the most ... The bloodhound was first bred ca. AD 1000 by monks at the St. Hubert ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodhound - 27k - 7 Aug 2006

Since I thought this was misleading, I joined up :) I hesitate to edit the article page.

1. Health

The breed in the USA may be prone hip dysplasia, but this did not feature as prominent in the last UK survey. I agree that the breed is prone to bloat, but what justifies the statement "is the breed that is the most frequent victim of bloat."? The reference to American Bloodhound Association, if it is not the National Police Bloodhound Association. [ http://www.npba.com/ ] presumably should refer to The American Bloodhound Club, but having failed to find anything on this at http://www.bloodhounds.org/ could do with a factual reference.

2. History

I may have a less pro-Brit attitude after I have been in the parade of hounds held on the 3rd September at St Hubert, Ardennes [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Hubert%2C_Belgium ]

My understanding is that St. Hubert, Ardennes was part of France then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium From the sixteenth century until the Belgian revolution in 1830, Belgium, at that time called the Southern Netherlands, . .

For now, changing

The bloodhound was first bred ca. AD 1000 by monks at the St. Hubert Monastery in Belgium.

which contains a dead link, might more accurately state

The ancentry of the bloodhound dates back to AD 1000, when hounds were bred at the Monastery of St Hubert [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubertus ] in Ardennes [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardennes ]

The name bloodhound was adopted in the 14th century in England, for a pure-bred, large, scent-hound, sometimes used to track people.

3. Noteworth Examples

Perhaps he is topical, but in historical terms, I wonder about the validity of the feature on Ch. Heathers Knock on Wood.

The statement

"He has received more Best in Shows than any other Bloodhound, and is the first liver-and-tan Bloodhound ever to win a Best in Show"

should be qualified to refer to "in the USA" and it would be more informative to state how many Best in Shows he received?

I am responsible for some, but not all, of the content you are discussing. Your criticisms, for the most part, are indeed valid, I must acknowledge. Your comments on bloat and on Knotty are well taken. I've corrected the text about bloat. Knotty probably really isn't that important a dog, but he created quite a sensation in the Bloodhound world when he won the Best In Show at Eukanuba; it is indeed extraordinarily rare for a bloodhound to get a Best in the U.S. Also, as being liver-and-tan, which judges never really preferred. Admittedly, this material is not of earthshaking importance, but I think it's appropriate in an encyclopedia article on the Bloodhound. I only feel somewhat funny because the article itself is still so incomplete and needs so much more work. The material on the Bloodhound's origins is less debatable. The one thing we do know is that it is clear that the (modern) hounds come from France, which has a wider variety of Hound breeds than any other country in the world. The Grand Bleu de Gascogne, Petit Bleu, Poitevin, and I could go on and on... Many of these Hounds are not even recognized in the United States, let alone found here. So it is very likely that the Bloodhound originated in France, even if the St. Hubert story and the time of creation may be inaccurate. I only mention this to illustrate that in this case, a historical "rumor" or "legend" probably does have some truth behind it. Ironically, although I wrote the comments above on the Bloodhound's French origins, the Bloodhound that bested Knotty and won the breed at Crufts 2006 was English, and well deserved his award. He was truly magnificent (in my opinion). I have no animus against the English at all; but in this case the French do indeed deserve the credit. 66.108.4.183 17:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

It looks like 66.108.4.183 aka Allen Roth has been wrongly accused of the hoax regarding Nash. I thank him for the compliments on Fergus [ http://farlap.co.uk/Bloodhounds/Farlap04.htm ] but would not regard this hound as particularly "Noteworthy" either. It does raise the point that the modern day red is a North American Outcross, so there is room for Origins of the breed to be expanded under a section in this article, perhaps entitled Outcrosses.

Colour inheritance may be more appropriately explained in another linkable article within the Dogs category. Sanft 14:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I don't know whether the following photo is adequate quality to use in illustration of the Belgian connection:

Sanft 20:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I think your photograph is fascinating, if not wonderful. It could use a little larger size, because it is difficult to make out the Bloodhounds with any detail. If you could do that, I think it would benefit. Certainly appropriate for the History section of this article. While we're at it, the main photo of the Bloodhound is really inadequate, in terms of displaying detail. I haven't ever uploaded a photo at Wikipedia, but I could do one of my Bloodhound. Or, the photo in the Wikipedia Francais article is very good, as well. It's of the owner's Bloodhound, "Mon chien." :) Also a very good photo. Oddly enough, the French article on the Chien de St Hubert is very poor, not even considering that the breed was created right near there. (ed.) 66.108.4.183 07:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

The photo on the right is a thumbnail to a 400x400 jpeg. It illustrates the size of the entrance to the monastery, featured at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saint-Hubert_JPG02.jpg

The best set of photos to achieve the detail in context that I have seen is for 2003 at the Belgian Bloodhound Club site [ http://www.chiens-de-saint-hubert.be/galerie%20de%20photos/Saint-Hubert%202003/album.htm ]

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chien_de_Saint-Hubert#Histoire doesn't make the same connection, but the image http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bloodhound.jpg features only a portrait of what could be regarded as a plane head, compared with the standard description. (It is perhaps best not to use photo of your own dog if you are unprepared for candid comments (NB. I haven't seen your hound!)).

I think the use of images may be useful to illustrate the colours and saddle patterns available, under an additional section.

Sanft 11:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Regarding your comment "Don't post photos of your dog, unless you're willing to accept criticism," get a load of the Wiki article on Circumcision, where one contributor has two photos of his own penis! I couldn't resist mentioning that when reading your comment. More later about my dog's photos, but I am very busy right now. Thanks. 66.108.4.183 17:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

[edit] Mantrailing

FYI Fox Hunting: History now has a link to Hunting the Clean Boot. This is the use of Bloodhounds as sport rather than serious work. Perhaps there is scope for starting a section under the Bloodhound article for both, either here or a separate article on Mantrailing to cover other breeds? Sanft 08:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blood Hounds

Blood Hounds These friendly dogs are known as the "Gentle Giants. " They look mighty big; they stand from 23 to 27 feet high and way 80 to 110 pounds. Their colors vary from black & tan, liver& tan or red.They may live from 10 to 12 years

by: Clara Sava- Segal