Talk:Armenian Genocide

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Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. -- Mgm|(talk) 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12 Archive 13 Archive 14 Fadix Analysis A Letter from The International Association of Genocide Scholars

[edit] Mass Graves Found In Eastern Turkey

I think we should add this information in this article about the findings of mass graves in Eastern Turkey believed to date from the 1915 Armenian and Assyrian Genocides. http://www.aina.org/news/20061128104356.htm Also in Turkish http://www.kurdistan-post.com/News-file-article-sid-13065.html Also if Turkey claims there was no Genocide than why is the Turkish government trying to hide this finding and the military personnel forbade the villagers to tell anyone about the site and then they closed the site. Although this information was leaked Turkey pressed the villagers to give the names of those responsible for it.

I read about this too. To me, this incident isn't surprising and it's probably one of the more blatant examples of Armenian Genocide denial (like you said, if there was no genocide, then why is the Turkish government so concerned about these bones?) This news is important and should be posted on both this article and the article on Nisibis (Nusaybin). -- Clevelander 22:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not think that AINA is a credible source. Besides excavated mass graves of Turks exist too, but no one has bothered to mention them[www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin1/7-Konukcu(143-154).pdf Massacres of the Turks and mass graves]

--Hasanidin 02:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hasanidin you just told me my source is not credible and you gave me a source that is also not credible either for your claim. Fine if that source is not credible I can give you another source http://www.topix.net/forum/blogs/T319LCRCGEIVKNP17 or [1] or [2] ROOB323 03:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The accc.org.uk is Armenian controlled, whereas regnum.ru is a Russian nationalist website, which features as a top story in its Russian verision an article denying the Ukrainian Holodomor. I checked the news in Turkish newspapers though, and it seems that the Turkish newspaper Özgür Gündem has indeed reported on the discovery of some bones and it seems also that it has been suspended for 15 days after remarks by a Turkish general of it being the mouthpiece of the PKK as reported by Radikal [3]. For now, I would refrain from any speculations on this apparent mass grave and await an investigation by experts. --Hasanidin 04:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Since the Turkish government closed off this site and told the villagers that found the site to remain silent. I really don't think there is any other way for experts to come and investigate this findings if the Turkish government is trying to keep silent regarding the finding, since this site was discovered on October 17, 2006 and kept secret until one of the villagers leaked the story. ROOB323 05:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

all news sources refer to a single newspaper here "Özgür gündem" the newspaper of the PKK terorist organisation. However if you could have read Turkish you would have seen that Kurdistan news tell the story quite different. stating that the villagers have found the grave while trying burry their death. and they covered the grave with stones. No mention of soldiers coming and closing the grave and warning people to remain silent. it is just said that villagers were asked to close the grave and not to do anything (obviously not to damage the site)and it is stated in the upcomig days the place will be investigated. this is simply a thing that any goverment will do. just two monts ago Türk history society challanged Armenians to come and find the mass graves of Armenians in a joined efford. This has not hit the head lines of course. So it is unfair to give an impression as if Turkey is trying to hide something. Finding a mass grave is not surprising since many people were killed during that period. what is interesting is that suddenly Swedish foreign minister jumped into that. the history is repeating it self over and over. Turkish mass graves found in so many places are no news. yet a gossib about a possible Armenian/Christian mass grave moves the Sweden parliment so deeply.neurobio 09:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

If the Turkish government is not trying to hide anything than we will see if the Turkish government will respond to Insan Haklari Derneği (IHD), a Turkish organisation working with human rights issues, which has sent an open letter to the Turkish ministry of the interior demanding an investigation of the mass grave discovery, to answer if the mass graves that were found near Nusaybin has something to do with the Assyrian and Armenian genicides. By the way since the Turkish government kept quiet for a while after discovering this graves the only newspapaer in Turkey that took pictures and reported about this findings they dug further into it and came into contact with professor David Gaunt at Södertörn University in Stockholm who has done a lot of research about the Assyrian genocide and the news about the mass finding was distributed by Tidningarnas Telegrambyrå (TT), Sweden's top news agency and was thereafter published in several Swedish media, including the two leading morning papers Dagens Nyheter (DN) and Svenska Dagbladet (Svd) this is why "moves the Sweden parliment so deeply" like you said. Also you claim there were "Turkish mass graves found in so many places" can you give me reliable sources for your claim? I want to see what your sources are from, when you accuse me of having a false source from a terrorist organization newspaper. ROOB323 22:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No one is accusing you of anything. "özgür gündem" is the newspaper of PKK and if these newspapers are using it as a source it is their fault not yours of course. here you can read an article on Turkish mass graves http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin1/7-Konukcu(143-154).pdf. and here you can see the pictures and details of excavation http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/massacres/assesment.html neurobio 23:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Neurobio I went to those websites that you gave me, but both of those sites were from a Turkish websites and I tried using google to find out if other countries websites claimed the same thing that were on the websites of Turkey, but I couldn't find any. I don't think that is a reliable source since only Turkish websites had those claims and the stuff I was reading were anti-Armenian website. ROOB323 03:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

November 13 1914. when was the genocide again..?

that only confirms what I have said most of these graves were opened decades ago. there were foreign professors present at the excavation. Still you can not find a single word about it in the international press. But these are scolarly documented. that is the reason why Armenian genocide issue has become common knowledge. For example you cant find a word about the malta tribunal or the armenian rebelion except for Turkish web sites. Despite the perfect documentation. such as this one.

To call these "scholarly documented" is a bit of a joke. I have read private reports from (non-Armenian or Turk) individuals who have examined much of this "evidence" and who have noted in some cases quite a bit of doctoring of what otherwise are likely Christian/Armenians to make it look as if they are Muslims. The same hold true for a number of artifats that are kept is supposed museums that depict Muslims slaughtered by Armenians. Much of this is very amaturish with obvious mitakes that in fact shows the opposite of what is being presented/portrayed. Again, I'm not claiming that there was none of this - Armenians killing innocent Turks. When Russians took over areas Russian Armenians, Cossaks, Russians and even Ottoman Armenian men who had fled the Genocide - did torch towns and villages and commit atrocities. And as sad as these criminal acts of war are - they still do not equate - in any respect - concerning government intent and policy and the totality and severity of the acts carried out against innocent woeman and children and such - the CUP directed program to annhilate its ethnic and religious minorities - of which the Armenians were first and formost on the list to be eliminated. Let us not forget that Assyrians and Greeks were similarly (later) treated to the same fate. Were Assyrians and Greeks likewise claimed to be colaborators with enemy forces commiting atrocities against Muslims? And even if there were some Assyrian and (Ottoman) Greek individuals or even forces that happened to join the Allies (such as Jews and Jewish units that joined the allies in WW2) do we then accept that the government directed and prosecuted genocides against these people never happened?--THOTH 15:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Denial section

Just removed the entries of the same university after some names. Would be good if someone can provide a data that these academician have also lectured at the university of Bilkent, otherwise I will see it as a cheap attempt to promote some university. xeryus 19:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the Washington Post article on the left, read the text, it refers to the Russian Armenian Army in the city of Kars, moving in the Ottoman Empire. Kars had been under Russian control since 1878 so by then, any Armenians living there were subjects of the Russian Tsar, not the Ottoman Empire. This was a poor attempt to prove that Armenians had already sided with the Russians in November 1914 but it seems otherwise useful so thanks for uploading it..--MarshallBagramyan 06:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

it says: The Russian Army of Armenia, whose base is on Kars, Transcaucasia, is approaching the Turkish fortress of Erzerum.

In several towns occupied by the Russians the Armenian students have shown themselves ready to join the invading army. Reports tell of armed conflicts arising from the refusal of Armenians to become Turkish conscripts and surrender their arms. It is now rumored that the important city of Van is besieged by Armenian guerilla bands in great force. In Feitun the Armenians are said to exceed 20.000 in number and they are reported to have defeated all the Turkish Troops sent against them causing the Turks heavy losses.

what does occupied and invade mean??? Where is Van? where is Feitun. "Zeytun" in Turkish. Needless to say in Ottoman bordes of course. and how Russian armenians can be asked to join turkish army. please... it seems that Armenian rebelion is not only a Turkish myth after all.neurobio 06:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

And where exactly do the sources come from, Petrograd or Constantinople?--MarshallBagramyan 06:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

it is under the section that starts as "An official communication from the general staff of the Caucasian army under date of Nov. 10, says". an in the entire article the names of the cities that all the reports are taken are Rome, London, Petrograd. neurobio 07:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

But who is the exact source that communiqued that the Armenians are in a mass uprising (20,000 is indeed a very large number)? And do other news articles at the time carry the same headline? Rome, London and Petrograd are simply the locations of the news bureau chiefs.--MarshallBagramyan 07:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Winston Churchil himself noted that at least 150,000 Armenian rebells joined the Russian army during its invasion of Turkey, and as many of them had fallen in battle, Armenians had to gather again around 35,000 to maintain the front against the Turks in what he called "liberated" Armenian territories. Why are you denying this mass uprising of the Armenians?

The Russian Caucasian army, which occupied the liberated Western Armenian provinces, was in disorder and rapidly disintegrating, and the Russian soldiers deserted to return to their homes. The first task of the new Caucasian government, limited though its means were, was to gather an army which could maintain the Turkish front. Since the Tatars refused to fight their Turkish cousins and the Georgian Mensheviks were under the sway of an inconvenient and illogical pacifism, the entire burden of the war fell upon the shoulders of the Armenians. Winston Churchill writes: “At the beginning of 1918 the Russian army abandoned the front in Asia Minor and became a scattered flock whose only desire was to return home. Russians left the front very quickly and the Turks had not yet advanced. The Armenians who stayed behind made a desperate attempt to defend their country, Armenia, and the Armenians in the Russian army gathered and, with the volunteer units, for a time, were able to stop the Turkish advance. Of the 150 000 soldiers that the Armenians had supplied to the Russian army, all had fallen in battle or were scattered over the empire, so that the Armenians were not able to gather more than 35 000 men.”

At the start of 1918, the Armenian army, continuing in Armenian military traditions, the hope and the condition for an independent Armenian government, took up position at the Western Armenian front. The Armenian army was led by commanders such as General Nazarbekian, General Andranik (known as the Armenian Garibaldi) and Colonel Morel, the Russian officer who was its founder and protector. The army fought without respite to defend Western Armenia and Transcaucasia, a 400 km front, against the Turkish army. General Brehman subsequently recorded: “The efforts of the Armenians at this remote front has been concealed from the European general public, but their place in history should be assured with the heroic deeds carried out during these battle.

Source: [4] --Hasanidin 15:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

how should I know the exact source? the section starts as "An official communication from the general staff of the Caucasian army". Also the Newyork times from the same time (there maybe several days of difference) has exactly the same news I dont have the original though just the quote from a book. also many more articles report simmilar thing from later time points. Marshall I admire your scepticism and it is well placed especially when it comes to newspapers but do you ask the same question when it fits your ideas? I wish you could have.neurobio 07:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

and generally they state the source especialy when it comes from a Turkish sourse such as this one.

Iowa Recorder - 1914 june 1 Destroy Many Towns

According to a dispatch from the Vali of Bitlis, Asiatic Turkey, seventeen villages have been destroyed by Armenian insurgents in the district of Sassun. More than 600 Armenian families have taken refuge at Mush, a town in Bitlis.neurobio 07:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm only curious Neuro. I only ask these questions whenever a particular source does not make sense and deserves scrutiny. It would be more sound if the information was coming from, for example, consulate officials or missionaries in the region or intl. observers rather than for obvious reasons, the government of the Ottoman Empire. In the case of the NYT article that appears on this article, it clearly states who is the source (i.e. the American Relief Society) and subsequent newspapers also state where their information is coming from (US Consuls, Ambassador so and so, etc.) Naturally the argument for the Genocide implies that all other Turkish officials, the valis and the kaymakams included, were privy to what was going to occur so such statements are of the norm.How many times have I asked for raising your opinions on the cited information on this article? --MarshallBagramyan 07:40, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

June 1 1914.

Unfortunatelly I regard missionary sources as the most dubious ones. Simply because they actively took part in the Greek and Bulgarian independence wars. Also think about therir deeds in the oldworld in America continent and Africa. these "men of god" unfortunately has served as tools of invasion and propaganda for a century. They also gave the same news of atrocities from these places while all turkish population was continuously massacred and exiled there. No one still ask what happened to Turks that lived in Greee and Bulgaria. their population now is almost non existant. I lost hope here because my simples adits like "some western scolars also has the idea as the Turks" are just removed in an instant. As you know I respect your attitute but please try to read other sources also. here I have found another article and the source is petrograd. Basicly the same story. but with some aditional data. transcription is there. neurobio 07:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Are we now establishing a policy that whatever is printed in an American Newspaper regarding the Armenian Genocide and suroundign events is entirely factual? If so that I would guess that we might have hundreds of entires - if not thousands to add to the database. In any event - so these articles present that some Armenian "students" have taken up arms against the Ottoman Turks - well this should be no surprise - after several generations of abuse - and recent massacres of very large numbers - that some Armenian have become disatisfied with the protections offered by the ottoman State - or lack therof - and have taken it upon themselves to be prepared to defend themselvs and their families. As for rumours of numbers and towns such as Van being besieged - they are just that - rumours - whose sources most likely are Turkish Government connected or otherwise questionable. If of course we see that these thigs are being reported from a variety of sources (not just from a variety of newspapers using the same source) then perhaps we can judge them credible. Until then we will take the word of actual eyewitnesses to these events and rely on information that it is clearly cooroborated by multiple sources.--THOTH 15:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Considering that's how most information is acquired in this world, yes. But to help bolster those news reports come testimonies from everyone: Armenians themselves, Germans, Americans, Austrians, Swedes, Danes, Norwegians and even Turks that Turkish government soldiers with the help of irregular brigands took part in widespread massacres without any regard for age, indiscriminate, sadistic, systematic killing.

Yes, many Armenians deserted the Turkish army when they saw the Russians coming in. Would you blame if some of them did (and this some is at most, several hundred)? They had been desperate to leave the miserable conditions the Empire had been forcing upon them and had been deluded by the CUP's promises for constitutional reform. Reread Ramsey's quote and see how he describes that Armenians and Greeks were "dogs to be spat upon". After all those massacres and outrages and abridged rights they had been living under for centuries, would any normal human being still tolerate them and risk his life in fighting for that same government.

Unfortunately, yes, they would as the vast majority of Armenians poured their hearts into wishing well the armies of the Ottoman Empire, of blessing Armenian troops who were to be drafted, of pledging to donate foodstuffs, of condemning Armenian soldiers who deserted, of telling their people not to fight back if provoked. And look where all that blind obedience led to. A two year old child living in the heart of Turkey at that time was in no way complicit in the acts of a minority group (Russian supporters) and the fact that that child died in the Syrian desert is proof as to why the Genocide is undeniably true.--MarshallBagramyan 18:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

ok marshall can you do something like that. check your sources about previous "Turkish crimes" and mark them on the map. you will see they are cumulated in an area where revolutionarists were active. Mainly Van, sasun, bitlis. But armenians were living every where. No real big thing ever happened in other areas that armenians lived. This centuries of massacres is simply un true. everything started after 1870s when Russia offically got the right to be the protector of ottoman Armenians. Every thing happened in the area is politically motivated. there has never been a racial hatered agains Armenians. one this is true about the Ottoman empire it supresses any uprising most brutally. But this holds true for anybody the same thing happened to pure Turks of Aydin, Kurds of diyabakir. No speial treatment ro Armenians due to hate. there are thousands of quotes about the fairness of Ottoman rule one must have tried hard to find that piece "dogs to be spat upon". this is just the most stupid accusation ever. Armenians had hundrest of high ranking officers in the Ottoman empire. Read Armenian survivors testimonies at least they tell about their life there. you see I read the real Armenian sources but you do not. please read Hrant sariyans diary and see that the miss treatment is confined to the areas in uproar. Are you like Clevelander who can not stand any thing against his dogma.

If have talked what genocide is hundred times still you say it is undeniable the act. Many people died this is the undeniable fact but calling it genocide is simply outrageous. lets say all your claims are true but still if Armenians rebelled and joined the enemy and helped them this shows that the actions taken by the goverment is because o military or political conditions. Genocide can only be present in the highes level of hatered against a group. there is no such thing.

It is a shame that no one in wiki took action agains Clevelanders Vandal acts (see history). this page is dead... neurobio 22:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

We have already discussed this before. Just because the Germans had never attempted to exterminate a race until 1941, did not mean that they didn't commit genocide in that time period. Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and Jews were dogs to be spat upon in the eyes of Muslims. All that nonsense coming from Voltaire and other Europeans who traveled through the region is worth nil; they never had their wives taken from them with impunity, they never were forced to pay multiple taxes, they never lived under that system so they are unable to make those judgments that the Sultan was as benevolent as they described him as. Ramsay lived there for twelve years and that's what makes his account much more credible. Armenians, Christians and Jews for that matter, did not start truly begin integrating and serving in the military until the Balkan Wars of 1912.

Even claiming that Armenians held such high positions (economic wise, the Ottoman Mint, ammunition, etc.) was due to the Islamic law which precluded Muslims from entering banking or interest loaning, that's the worst excuse of the "equality" argument of all.

but calling it genocide is simply outrageous I don't make up the evidence, the fact that nearly every single person living there at the time, Turkish ally or not, stated that they saw Armenians being destroyed systematically. The fact that much of the evidence in private correspondence (telegrams, letters, etc.) comes from Turkey's allies is what makes it so damning when wartime censorship in Germany strictly omitted such references.--MarshallBagramyan 23:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The status of the Armenians in the Empire

How about the POV in the pre-CUP history? The life of Ottoman second-class citizens was not nearly as repressive as the author makes it sound. Non-Muslim Ottomans could testify in religious court, but their testimony meant less. Like, say, if there is a believer's word against an "infidel"'s word. Mind, this was only the state within the religious courts. These always dealt with the more domestic side of the law and, even in this capacity, tended to touch and less-and-less upon the regular legal proceedings within the empire throughout the modern era. Until the fervour of nationalism infected the decaying empire, the non-Muslim Ottoman was not more often spit on than doffed a hat to; the Non-Muslim Ottoman was granted rights to facilitate the practices of his or her own faith and, before the seizure of power by the CUP, Christians and Jews had enjoyed two generations of being priveleged enough to choose between serving in or paying into the army. Armenian Ottomans dominated European land trade in and out of the empire. Members of the Armenian populace could win, by their merits, the respect of their Muslim, Greek and Jewish neighbours. I would also like to add that citing a European travelogue to characterize the treatment of Christians in the Ottoman Empire can only cast doubt on the validity of your characterization, based, as it seems to be, on unqualified Orientalist pulp. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.81.123.57 (talk • contribs) 07:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] The Special Organization (Teşkilat-ı Mahsusa)

This article has more information than any of the other articles about the Special Organization or the other one. Can anybody fix those articles, and source this one? --AW 21:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

In two days I will have few hours free in my hands, I will add those. Fad (ix) 01:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish Thesis

Guys, it is not my job to say that it did happen or it didn't happen, but I have a few problems with the style of te article. The word "deny" has a completely different meaning than the word "doesn't accept". I urge all wikipedians to change "deny"s to "doesn't accept"s and there is also some information on Wikipedia in Turkish. I hope that no one will not object when I translate those texts to English Wiki. Both sides have their right to express their solutions to the issue.Caglarkoca 21:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The Turkish government denies the reality of the Armenian Genocide. Period. There's no reason to change the diction. Serouj 21:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

In the Turkish Wikipedia, you can reach the information that Armenia rejected the Turkish offer to make the government archives. Anyone can reach the Turkish archives from http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/o_b_ermeniler/obermeniler.htm Unfortunately the site is in Turkish. (of course it is Turkish archives) But I am willing to translate some texts from them if anyone wants to read them.Caglarkoca 22:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how that relates to Genocide denial by the Turkish government, and changing the diction of the word "deny." Serouj 22:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It is well known, however, that the Ottoman archives remained closed for decades to Western scholars. In the meantime, it is highly likely that the Turkish government took the time to sort through them and remove any evidence of the Armenian Genocide. What else would explain keeping the archives closed to Western scholars for 85 years? Cheers. Serouj 22:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If you can find for us the proceedings of the Ottoman military tribunal which convicted the Young Turk triumvirate of crimes against humanity, that would be great! Thanks. Serouj 22:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Allright, I don't want to discuss whether it is happened or not. It is historians' job. I am an engineer, sorry:) Why are the armenian archives still closed? I am open to other points of information about translating Turkish Armenian Genocide to English and add it to wiki. You cannot just reject Turkish side.Caglarkoca 22:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem. Which Armenian archives are you referring to? Genocide scholars continue to be denied access to the Ottoman archives. Serouj 22:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The article which you offer is dated 1997 which means that it is out of date. Besides, can you find me a website which includes Armenian Archives as the Turkish archives webpage http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/o_b_ermeniler/obermeniler.htmCaglarkoca 22:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Correction. Hilmar Kaiser was recently regranted access to the Ottoman archives, but important parts of it still remain closed; importantly, the Ottoman Ministry of the Interior's Directorate for Public Security, 2nd Department (Armenian Department). ref. Serouj 22:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Turkish archives are open since 1993. Hence the document that you are offering has no reliability. The date is taken from http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/o_b_ermeniler/sunus.htm. It is a governmental website.Caglarkoca 22:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

That Dr. Hilmar Kaiser, a German archival historian and genocide scholar, has not been granted access to the archives of the Ottoman Ministry of the Interior's Directorate for Public Security, 2nd Department (Armenian Department) is a documented fact. I don't understand Turkish, but maybe you can help here. Does the site you are referencing include all the material from the Ottoman Ministry of the Interior's Directorate for Public Security, 2nd Department (Armenian Department)? Serouj 22:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for a worthy comment:) I am not sure whether it includes all archive, but the whole archive is open now. I cannot possibly provide you the link which tells that all archive is available due to the fact that the link given in the Turkish wiki doesn't work. I'll give you any necessary information from here. If you want to reach Turkish wiki http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ermeni_Soyk%C4%B1r%C4%B1m%C4%B1. I will be busy with translating the page in a few days.Caglarkoca 22:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

hilmar kaiser and Ara sarafin and many other armenians worked in the Turkish archives and the copied some 3000 to 8000 archive documents. after working for a long time he was thrown out due to his disregard to Archvive rules. Meaning unauthorised copying and smuggling of documents. And the only noteworthy thing Ara sarafian published as far as I know is he found that the number of armenian deporties as documented by ottoman archives was not 700.000 as formerly believed. he found that that number was actually the Turkish deporties. No proof of genocide or what so ever came out.neurobio 20:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adolf Hitler

On August 22, 1939 Adolf Hitler gave a speech outlining his plan for Lebensraum. Lebensraum was Hitler's plan for wiping out the Jews and the Poles to create living space for his new Third Riech. In this speech Hitler refers to a little known event that he calls the Annihilation of the Armenians. Hitler pointed out that very few poeple and no genvernments recognize or even remember what happened to the Armenians during WWI. Basically Hitler was using the Armenian Genocide as an example of what he would be able to get away with while dealing with the Jews of Europe. 206.78.245.35 16:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

And your sources are? yandman 16:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

In 1942 American author Louis Lochner published a book titled "What About Germany", my source comes from him. His source comes from a transcript of the speech Hitler gave to the commanders of the Wehrmacht. The third paragraph of the speech also hangs in the Holocaust Museum in Washington. There is also a Wikipedia article dealing with this quotation. See - Armenian Quote.206.78.245.35 20:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's the article. Armenian quote. it says it's in dispute. But 206.78.245.35, you should really sign up for a user name --AW 20:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Whether the Wikipedia article says so or not, the reason the quote is in dispute has to do with the fact that the Turks want to hide this embarassing part of their history. Western European governments as well as the US do not wish to upset the Turkish government or people because Turkey is new to the EU and NATO and serves as an important jumping off point for wars that are fought in the region (ie Iraq). There is more to gain on all sides if the Armenian Genocide just goes away (thus the growing denial movement). There is very little to gain in making up the Armenian Genocide as the world community - and the UN - doesn't really do anything about genocides as you can see from what's happening in Sudan and what has happened in Rwanda, Shri Lanka, Somalia, and many dozens of other places around the globe. (As for logging in, I'm brand new to Wikipedia and not very computer saavy and I really don't know how).206.78.245.35 22:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Remember the simple fact that the "document" containing the hitler quote was rejected as "unreliable" in Nurenberg trials. the presence of this quote in the genocide museum actually shows how reluctant The armenians are abouth accepting the truth. In the same museum the proven forgeries Andonian document are also presented. not to mention the 1.5 milion figure. neurobio 22:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Not a single claim you make here is accurate or truthful. The truth is that the "Lochner" version of the Hitler speech(s)was known and accepted as the most thorough of the three versions (all from notes taken as there was no prepared text or such). The reason it was not used was that the portion of the speech that was useful to the nuremburg prosecuters concerned pre-meditation of the attack on and Hitler's plans against Poland and all of the documents contained the passages related to this. The prosecutors were aware of the aggressive cross examination and attempts b the defense to discredit documents and even though all were confident of the accuracy of the Lochner document (and have maintained this under oath) the issue had to do with the veracity of the chain of possesion of the documents. As the other two versions were taken directly from captured German Officers (at wars end) they were much more difficult to challenge then a version obtained much earlier (1939) through Lochner. Thus there was no need to enter into evidence a document that could cause delay or such from a defense challenge. And the "so-called" Andonian documents have never been proven to be forgeries. However they are difficult to verify as the originals of the documents have been lost. However, the primary content of the telegrams has been verified and corroborated through other sources - thus one can assume that these documents are in fact accurate as nothing in them has ever actually been contradicted and they conform with what is known from other sources. However, much like as with the "Lochner" version of Hitler's speech(s) the "Andonian" documents are unecessary as a proof of the Genocide as there exists a plethora of corraborated and sourced and clearly reliable data that prove the Armenian genocide with more then sufficient detail and confidence. 1.5 million figure for the Armenian genocide is at least as accurate as the 6 million figure for the Jewish Holocaust and both figures can be thought of similarly - as an approximate number useful to guage the size of the crime in terms of general numner of individuals killed. In each case whether the actual figure is somwhat more or somewhat less is immaterial. What is important is the utter devestation of the ethnic communitiy and the deliberate systamatic plan engaged to exterminate such. And what is also noteworth is how deniers of each genocide continually harp on these figures and attempt to dispute the accuracy of such as if this actually matters or changes anything. It doesen't. What it does is show the lengths that deniers will go and exposes the paucity of argument that they have to dispute the basic and known and important facts of the matter. And in this regard, as in most others, genocide deniers only show their true colors to the world.--THOTH 01:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

according to what I have read the document was rejected because some pages were changed by some one. Andonian documents are proven forgeries. No single scolar even your genocide scolars do not use these documets any more. Even good old deciever Dadrian.neurobio 21:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Well you've heard wrong. I always find it funny that some Turks would even attempt to make the claim that there was a conspiracy during/just after WWII to link Hitler with the Armenian Genocide (claiming that thses statements were fabricated...by who? For what reason? There was absolutly no Armenian effort towards Genocide recognition at this time and no involvement of any Armenians in this besides - it is an absurd claim and bespeaks of Turkihs paranoia and desperation) And indeed these are not the only statements made by Hitler concerning the Turkish extermination of Armenians - there are several on record - this one is just the most famous. And again - no one has ever "proven" the so-called "Andonian" telegrams as forgories...based on what? - official Turkish scholorship??? please - are you trying to make a joke...I'm certainly laughing. And that you call Dadrian - the absolute most respect scholar on this issue a deciever is quite telling. --THOTH 05:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

they are forged for robust and simple reason. 1. in one of the telegrams the person who sends the telegram was not working in that region at that time. 2. the guy who forged the telegram made another fatal eror by forgeting the time difference between regular calender and the callender used my muslims. 3. the paper style does not match the papers used in otoman communication and archives 4. the signatures are not real (doesnt match the real signature) as proven by forensic experts. 5. the real documents are not around no one has seen the originals but the copies. And dadriann is really respected. he was the chanpion on defending the andonian documents. Even the quote that you wrote made here citing the book "two commitees two massacres" is a distorted translatian and sipmly a scientific crime.neurobio 13:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

All those issues have already been addressed in Dadrian's own paper which you comment when you haven't even read it. His paper about the Andonians could be found here. [5] So much goes of the said scientific crime. Fad (ix) 03:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, when you say the Armenians are reluctant to accept the truth, which truth are you refering to? That the genocide did in fact happen, or that it did not. 206.78.245.35 23:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

the fact that Andonian documents are proven forgeries and still they are presented in your genocide museum. thats what I am talking about. It is rather strange to present totaly fake documents in your sacret monument. I dont expect any Armenian to say there is no genocide.neurobio 21:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Remember the simple fact that the "document" containing the hitler quote was rejected as "unreliable" in Nurenberg trials. Even if it was, Hitler referenced the fate of Armenians at least 3-5 times prior to the war and even prior to its rise to power in interviews and personal avowals.--MarshallBagramyan 23:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no info about previous talks of hitler. Maybe you are right but it is just a meaningles debate in terms of proving a genocide. He serves just to gain sympathy Armenian cause and draw analogy between holocaust and Armenian issue.neurobio 21:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lock Request

I think it would be wise to place a lock on this article, such that only registered users may edit it, given the number of vandalisms we've had in the last day; I counted 16. Thanks. (Can the lock be made long-term?) Serouj 20:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Serouj, we need to lock this article. I think admins must place semi protection to this page. It is a sensitive issue and some people think that vandalism can solve it. Caglarkoca 22:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. Khoikhoi 22:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Genocide Denial

We currently have the following link to a Turkish Genocide Denial article: http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html. Doesn't this belong in the Denial of the Armenian Genocide article, under the "Websites opposing the genocide theses" heading? Serouj 20:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the policy means it should be in the article about denial, in the same way that evolution has no links to sites supporting creationism. yandman 20:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. The Denial of the Armenian Genocide article already has said link in the right header. Serouj 22:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New contributions

Someone is trying to rewrite this as a translation of the article on the Turkish Wikipedia. Is there anyone who doesn't think this is a very bad idea? yandman 15:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This idea belongs to me. I am here to ask you why are you so stressed about translation? It might seem as a bad idea to you, but anyone using wikipedia has the right to learn about the Turkish Thesis as well. Such an attempt will not violate WP:NPOV#Undue weight and is in fully accordance with WP:NPOV Caglarkoca 16:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is part of WikiProject Turkey so such changes are essential to Wikipedia. Thanks. Caglarkoca 16:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Copied from your talk page:

1. We have to cite "reliable sources" when writing articles. Concerning the Armenian genocide, the Turkish government is far from being reliable.
2. Everything you put in the article was already there. Much of it is also in Denial of the Armenian Genocide.
3. We have to respect the "Undue Weight" policy. We can't present two theories as equal if one is only supported by a small minority. In this case, the minority view is put in it's own section. Consider the Holocaust. We put all the arguments denying it in this chapter of the article (An important note: I'm not comparing the two, I repeat: I'm not comparing the two). The same is done on Armenian Genocide.

Now I see you're from Turkey, so I'm sure you're making these edits in good faith, but don't forget that the Turkish view (be it true or not) is not the generally accepted one, and as a tertiary source, we have to say what's said, not what's true. Cheers. yandman 16:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

We already have a section called "Denial" in the article, and we point to the main article Denial of the Armenian Genocide. That type of information would belong in the latter article. On a related note, Caglarkoca, have you thought about making the reverse translation as well? (That is, taking information from the English language Wikipedia article on the Armenian Genocide and transferring it over to the Turkish one, which seems awfully short to me compared to the English one.) Serouj 21:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legal Vandalism

Some people prevented me from translating Turkish article on Armenian genocide to English and add it to the main article as a section without changing the content of the main article. Considering the fact that almost everyone making a research does not visit the related pages, it is a pity to not to mention of Turkish thesis in the main page. It can be accepted by most of the people that the name of the events took place in 1915 in Turkey is genocide, but the people disagreeing are not few in number. Hence, Turkish minority has the right to express themselves in the main page. The same people who prevented me from the translation were complaining about the vandals in Wikipedia. My problem is that if the page were not in the position that they do like, then they would most probably be vandals themselves. They prevent other opinions to be expressed in order to protect their opinion to be served as the best and the only opinion. It is quite unfortunate that wikipedia itself is considered to be a reliable source, but it is certainly not objective. Until such vandalism is stopped, I will not continue editing the site. It might be until forever but who cares. Thanks to Khoikhoi and Alex Bakharev who at least tried to understand me. Caglarkoca 21:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The translation is more than welcome, I don't know if I am hallucinating, but it seems that large junk of text presenting the anti-thesis have just disapeared in the last few months. I am not following this article much anymore since I am lost with all the changes happing here and because I don't have time. Just provide your translations in my talk page, and I will neutralise it and see what can go there. Regards. Fad (ix) 23:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It was removed a while back. Neurobio sent me some documents on Halacoglu's work, but I've never had the time or energy to turn them into a summary of his arguments. But I haven't forgotten them. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

We never had an OK summary of the official Turkey's position, it was rather an Halacoglu section. This is why I believe it would be interesting that he translate it to see what relevent material could be retrieved. Fad (ix) 00:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't preach to us about vandalism. One of the largest vandalisms in written history was carried out by your government during the creation of the modern day republic of Turkey, and in the words of the late American ambassador to Turkey, Henry Morgenthau, "Whatever crimes the most perverted instincts of the human mind can devise, and whatever refinements of persecution and injustice the most debased imagination can conceive, became the daily misfortunes of this devoted people."

Don't talk to me about vandalism. That of the approximately 2,500 Armenian monasteries and churches in Turkey, only 6 remain in existence, that constitutes vandalism, and was perpetrated by your government which created a country from the looted property, money, and treasures of the Armenian people, and has blood all over its hands.

Don't talk to me about vandalism. That my maternal grandfather narrowly escaped death from the hands of the Turks in Diyarbekir in 1915; that my grandfather was sentenced to death because he was an Armenian Apostolic Christian; that with the quick-thinking of his mother and while the Turkish guards were looking the other way she pushed my grandfather with the other much smaller set of children who were Armenian Protestants and who were not going to be massacred due to the presence of American missionaries; that without this whim of a woman, without that random thought I would not be alive today haunts me to this day...

And yet you, who are ignorant of your own country's past, come here preaching vandalism? You, whose grandparents and great-grandparents have removed the Armenian people from their historic homeland while killing off 2/3 of them; who ripped open unborn fetuses from the belies of pregnant women; who raped Armenian women in front of their husbands before killing both; who took the most beautiful women for themselves; who plundered, burned, ruined, and destroyed forever any remaining evidence of Armenian churches, monasteries, libraries, illuminated manuscripts, books, metal artwork, church icons, khatchkars (stone crosses), embroidery and needlework, carpets, antiques, sculptures, tombstones, woodcarvings, alfresco paintings, and medieval documents, as well as many other specimens of Armenian culture; whose vandalism lead to the irretrievable loss of the culture and the arts of the Armenian people whose value cannot be measured in any way.

Go! Read the Trial of Soghomon Tehlirian , the man who assassinated one of the masterminds of the Genocide - Talaat Pasha - and who was found "not guilty" in a German court. Read the eyewitness accounts of the genocide in that trial. And then go tell your countrymen about it; tell your parents, your girlfriend, and all your friends about what your great-grandparents did to the Armenians living in your country. Tell them how Turkey was founded. The ghosts of the dead and the cries of the living will forever haunt you, otherwise. Serouj 23:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Assume good faith, he is a new user, and is apparent he is still not well aware of the policies, but there is nothing he did that could bring me to believe that he is acting in bad faith. Don't drive him away, (Personal attack removed). Besides, you haven't yourself been that wikipedias way either as new editor at first. Fad (ix) 00:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Caglarkoca, I would also welcome your translations and encourage you to continue. Lima6 18:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irrelevant posts

Do not post messages that have nothing to do with the content of the article nor improvements that can be made. Any such messages can be removed per Wiki policies. This is not a personal forum, nor does it belong to anyone except the Wikipedia Foundation. If you would like to post personal messages, use e-mail, MSN or create your own website. Baristarim 23:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Serouj, your comments were rather uncivil, and directed at a user who doesn't seem to be acting in bad faith. His message was rather unpleasant (and a bit silly), I agree, but then again english clearly isn't his mother tongue, and he's new, so it's mean to lash out like that. However, Baris, I wouldn't remove them, as it could be argued that they're relevant to the underlying content dispute here: That Cagaloka believes... Well, you know the story. If Serouj would retract his comments, that would be nice. If not, tant pis. Come on people, let's not get bogged down in this again, or else I'm going to go and flame the people on Talk: France for invading us back in 1066... yandman 08:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Caglarkoca may be acting in good faith. I don't want to remove my comment, because I think it addresses and puts into perspective where the word "vandalism" should really be used when talking about this subject. Lashing out at a newbie was not right; it was an impulsive and emotional response on my part, given my family's involvement in this matter — just being human. Caglarkoca, please continue on with the translation, and let the group know when it's ready. Thanks. Serouj 11:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I also apologize if I kinda jumped in there, but there have been too many instances of such conversations getting out of hand. The problem is not the posts themselves actually, but really the only thing that worries me is that when such conversations get out of hand, it contributes to the creation of a hostile working environment (even more than usual :)) I tried to contact caglarkoca to try to explain him that if he wanted he might rather want to get involved in less "hot" articles until he has understood the atmosphere in Wiki English. Cheers! Baristarim 12:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Turkish government section

OK, I've read the translation, it is an end by itself, not what I have hopped, I have contacted Garnet as I don't see who else I could contact about it and I ask Caglarkoca to work with Garnet on this issue. Maybe Baristarim is interested too. Fad (ix) 02:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Just an indicator, starting with the foreign ministry site, Kamuran Gurun etc., would be a good start. Fad (ix) 02:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

There is much to translate, and I will continue translating. But I am not a native speaker, so it will need a review for grammer mistakes and minor corrections. I will ask baristarim to help me when I finish it. Thanks Caglarkoca 12:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see the point of why everyone is so interested in the Turkish Wikipedia version...we have our own Turks here who do more then enough to provide us with unsupportable excuses and explanations with holes in them miles wide. Really now - I totally fail to see what value this is supposed to add. Gurun? Haven't we heard enough of the Turkish political denial? It has no place here.--THOTH 04:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)